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I'm going to risk some controversy and point out that historically, (and very generally speaking) being a jazz musician was more an occupation available to poor black men, not middle class white people. Louis Armstrong's roots in New Orleans, for example. The be-boppers of the late 40's, early 50's- Miles' upbringing as the son of a dentist, coming to NYC to study at Julliard, was the exception, not the rule. Read biographies like "Bird Lives" for a glimpse into how it was. That is, it's never been a "good job", even for the greats during a golden age.
I've known a bunch of pro musicians over the last 30-40 years, and most all had a day job of some kind, taught students, did weddings, etc.
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04-24-2019 10:33 AM
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Interesting thread. I should be practicing right now for a a group practice tonight to decide how much more we need to practice for a gig next week... Instead I'm got caught up with this thread! Reminds me of a Gillian Welch song "Everything Is Free".
Everything is free now
That's what they say
And everything I've ever done
I'm gonna give it away
Someone hit the big score
They figured it out
That we're gonna do it anyway
Even if it doesn't pay
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I agree with Jeff's previous post. I will not play any gig for free. Where I live, if your toilet becomes clogged and you have to call a plumber, you'll pay $135.00 per hour for the service. Is he worth more than a highly trained musician? I do mostly solo work and charge a minimum $75.00 per hour. That includes travel time, set up, and take down(guitar,amp, microphone, stands, etc.) and a 15 minute break. So, basically, you're playing for half--$35.00 when everything is considered. If I play a two-hour gig, I charge $135.00 to give them a "break" for the extra time. However, I am not supporting myself by playing since these figures would not support a living lifestyle. When you play for free, you are a slave. And when everyone becomes slaves, the business will completely die and anyone with talent will quickly disappear. Good music . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by MarineroOriginally Posted by Marinero
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Hi, Tal and Lobomov,
I agree with both of your posts. The secret when trying to get a gig is to get in the door to play for PAY. After that, there is the potential for tips(which can be quite lucrative in up-scale restaurants) or increasing your future pay if the restaurant/bar, etc. sees that he is making more money because you are there. For most venues, it is the potential to increase the bottom line not love of music that induces an owner to hire a musician(s). If that is the case, your prospects will be good for the future. A case in point: the last restaurant gig I played(solo), I contracted for 2 hours at $135.00. At the end of the night, I walked away with $275. between tips and extra paid to me by the restaurant because they had a very big night. However, this is not always the case and should not be expected. . . ergo, the $75.00 per hour rate. Good playing . . . Marinero
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Good thread, and an interesting discussion. Getting paid can be hard for young players like myself, especially as someone who moved -to- a major city without a network. I want to have the ability to say no, but when you're fresh out, you got to take some of those gigs just to get your name out there. When nobody knows my name, there's definitely not a concert-goer willing to pay a dime to see me. I don't personally ever take "exposure" gigs, but I continue to join those name-spreading gigs for people I play for/with (if I believe in it) - knowing that there's not a paying audience for them - but these will be artists with certain aspirations.
I used to play organ in the house band for local jam nights in my hometown, and I'd get paid about a hundred bucks per night if enough people came to jam. That was fun work, even if I couldn't exactly sustain myself on it - I didn't know a damn tune but this was a blues club, so it was always gonna be the same chart in one of four keys - so for me, it was a hundred bucks per night to jam out and giving it my best. I always came out sweating after those gigs, because you can really play your ass off when you've done a chart a million times.
On the other end of the "relatively simple keyboards" gigs, my best-paying gigs have been as a piano player with a singer who placed in the top 5 of a national TV singing contest. For our first gig together, I got 200 bucks for 3 songs. On our second, 400 plus a BBQ buffet dinner for 5 songs. I guess pop singers is where the money's at, no surprise there...
There might be a point to be made about jazz having left the popular scene, but at the same time, Cory Henry, the keyboard virtuoso, sold out huge stages when he came to play here, and in the matter of hours! Henry is, though, not as stuck in the past as I know that I am. Perhaps this too is a crucial part of the issue - a lot of jazz players are playing a type of music which was once progressive but is now academic and historical - essentially roleplaying, sometimes even in costume with tuxes and whatnot. The jazz players I know that -do- get paid enough to at least live and break even, are almost all playing various types of progressive jazz. Those that don't, are big names from a different era.
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" I want to have the ability to say no, but when you're fresh out, you got to take some of those gigs just to get your name out there." Mr. Quick
Hi, Q,
Perhaps other "performers" will agree with me but this has never been a successful tactic. The better alternative, in my opinion, is to put your shoes to the pavement and go out and sell your product(music) to those who ,potentially, are buyers. Whether you are a single or play with a group, identify those buyers who will pay for YOUR services. Sometimes, this requires traveling out of your area or being creative in your choices-- ie; art shows, food festivals, libraries with cultural programs, etc. However, if you want to get your name in the game, attend local jam sessions where you'll meet other musicians who you can network with for gigs--especially if your new to the area. Making music for money is, in most cases, an oxymoron. However, it is still possible to get some gigs without playing for peanuts. I hope this helps. However, making a living, as Bobby Broom sadly related is quite another matter. Good playing, Marinero
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Good shout! I should go to more jams!
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Originally Posted by JGinNJ
Seattle is fortunate to have lots of paid venues for pro musicians. And the community by and large support the jazz community. October is the month for the annual month long jazz festival known as Earshot Jazz Festival. Lots of venues, lots of players.
But the past 10 years even the premier club in town, Dimitriou's Jazz Alley, aka Bluenote NW, has had to diversify its programming to softer jazz offerings on a regular basis. I saw Joey D there some months back. Tula's, often a venue for local and pro musicians, and the Triple Door are other decent jazz venues. I couldn't imagine living some place where I couldn't go out to see live jazz 7 nights a week.
I feel for gigging musicians.
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NYC is doing great too. Everyone is busy and working. Free gigs are for pop or rock scene, where they ask you to bring X number of people and charge cover. Jazz musician don't usually play that kind anyway.
But to really make living more or less comfortable living there is basically 2 ways.
1st is to play plenty of private events, you can get your rent covered just playing few a month. I know a lotta peeps from hot jazz scene doing it, they usually dress super nice and stylish, and it's the key!
2nd is get a name recognition or join someone who does and tour a lot. Touring with a good draw is great and fun.
And well, there is the 3rd way- do both and feel lucky!
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Looks like Tula's is closing...
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Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Setting your price high screens out a lot of people who would mess you around otoh- for functions gigs and so on
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Originally Posted by arielcee
Honestly Seattle feels a bit like SF did 5 years ago, in terms of tech kinda taking over the city. Earshot seems like a great festival/newsletter and Seattle has always had a great jazz education program, but, I'm not so sure I agree that there's lots of places to play. Many places like Vito's have jazz every so often, but there don't seem to be that many places for local musicians to play. Dimitrou's seems to have mostly touring acts.
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Bummer about Tula's. I'd been going there since '93.
High tech Seattle has also effected real estate prices throughout the entire region over a 100 mile radius. One can't buy a home 40 miles north of Seattle for less than $400k and that's a small starter fixer. Today's Seattle sky is filled with cranes. So much for progress.
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2bop,
I think Wes worked in a milk/dairy factory in the morning, welder in the afternoon and regular gig plus an after hrs gig.
Where that left time for sleep is beyond me and maybe contributed to his passing @ 43.
As for restaurant type gigs, it might be possible to get a raise if you're pulling them in if you're a single.
But for a trio or quartet I've only experienced it maybe twice in my life and this was only a small raise after we'd been there many yrs.
There's always going to be some young inexperienced people undercutting the established players, but I'm not lowering my price to compete, I'd rather pass.
I recently walked past a place w/ a sign out front booking jazz, text this number. So I texted and asked what they were paying guys for a trio and the response was $100. I thought fine, we can do that on a weeknight, the response was $100 for the whole trio!
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This comes up at about 7:50...
https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/mark-gould
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
In my view, the reason that restaurant/cafe gigs pay what they do is that live music is a novelty, that's gonna draw maybe a few people but certainly isn't going to make or break anyone's evening, musically. Yet, on every forum I've ever been on, we discuss these gigs as if they should somehow pay a living wage. They don't, they honestly haven't for as long as I've been playing professionally (~25 years), and yet, here we are .
Ok, enough ranting from me.
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Places that offer free music usually don't feel obligated to provide quality.
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Originally Posted by rabbit
I see it landing that all musicians will becom amatures... Most of the musicians in India are amatures, they have to find another way to make money...
No, look at the music business. You have a DJ, one person, come to Madison Square Garden, and fill Madison Square Garden, for a week, one person. The DJ's, all the EDM, ... that seems to be the future of music. I don't see where there is a possible revenue stream for recording, you use to be able to sell records, with the streaming the corporate interests have won, there's no money in that, ... I don't mean to be negative, I think music itself is very healthy, people are doing more and more music that is really interesting to me, but I don't know that there is any money in it.
I don't... In one way it's perpetuating a fruad on one level, the money part of it, on another level, people love to play instruments...
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I focused on your statement, " It will go back to what it was."
I think this is where we might be going wrong. I feel like Jazz music is art, but once it becomes a business, then it follows the rules of all businesses. And success in business ultimately depends on supply and demand, not any perceived intrinsic value of the product.
I did not want to believe this about music, but over the years, I am finally caving in, especially after seeing how much the Jazz around here is subsidized by wealthy donors. Also, many of the business owners were always music lovers and music was a part of their original vision, but they found out the demand for Jazz was such that there can't be too many venues in a given area. So many have come and gone.
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Live music business is different in the sense that some need gigs more than they need money. In fact even those who need the money, there are some gigs they would happily do for free if they love the art. Gigs with musicians that are way above their weight for example.
Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2019 at 11:16 AM.
A nice blond and Mickey Rooney on drums
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