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I read that Van Halen used to throw big open parties when they were starting and play at them. People would throw them a few bucks (or not) but who cared, they got to play and have a blast. These parties became large affairs and word got around that the band was pretty good and this led to paid gigs.
So there's an idea. Throw a party and you be the band/performer. (If you find this too intimidating then perhaps you are not ready for prime-time.)
Invite anyone and everyone. Tell people to bring food and drink.
My 59 year old college roommate (pop/folk music genre) does this at his house. Has a few steady bandmates of different ages who play with him. Invites the neighbors and friends. They play in his backyard and he gets anywhere from 20-50+ people who show up to have fun. Young people show up too.
I've never been as he lives in another state but I've seen his pics.
Just a thought. Have a jazz party. Keep your day job for now.
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02-22-2019 02:42 PM
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Plenty of free web traffic, though.
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Originally Posted by Drumbler
I had a band in high school/college...played weird rock (think Zappa interpreted by non-talented musicians), we were underage...we'd rent the local VFW hall with another band who was old enough to sign for it...sell tickets for a few bucks...made hundreds of dollars profit, which we blew on pizza and grass. But that's when we were young and nobody had anything to do, so they might as well come see us.
It's the whole punk DIY thing. Jazz might need to embrace that. Could be fun.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
I mean... There are plenty of people out there who would love to work for a lot less than minimum wage outside of music as well, because they're desperate for work etc. At what point does sharecropping become less than charitable and demean someone's humanity? At a certain point, these conversations can get more philosophical, but there is such a thing as human dignity. what is an hour of anyone's life really worth? How many hours of work are represented in one hour of music performed etc?
Most of these problems stem from how MUSICIANS view and value their OWN time, more so than the general public. Musicians who would never think of asking someone else to do fair work for NOTHING act as if they feel guilty for charging something at all levels. I have a friend with a fully booked studio who undercharges for lessons and feels guilty for thinking of raising rates.
A hundred bucks is a meal out for a small family nowadays. If a musician can't consider that leaving their house for a performance is worth more than a single meal, the problem isn't with society at large.
It really doesn't matter how you approach it philosophically.... You can go the route of "moral imperatives" for meeting human dignity ....or more pragmatically as supply and demand economics, ....but musicians doing something for next to nothing doesn't help ANYONE. I think it would be better to organize a jam or do something that is legitimately charitable. I take groups to nursing homes all the time, and it's really good for your soul. Do it.
There are plenty of opportunities to help folks who need it, without doing "charity" for those who could reasonably be expected to pay for something. It's an indignity to both parties in my opinion.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-22-2019 at 03:37 PM.
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Re: hippie rock
We were probably so uncool we were cool. Looked like second hand Nirvana, played like the Dead on a bad night, covered everything from the Dead Boys to REM to Allman Bros..but also did comedy routines, had friends who'd dress up in costume. Went on a big Andy Kauffmann kick, once had a friend pretend to beat me up on stage (he got a little too into it, actually busted my lip) People used to request "alternative rock" tunes we hated, we'd hook up a discman to our PA, play a CD and "mime" to it. I wish some tapes existed. We were together for like 10 years, started as a six piece, ended as a trio...good times.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Many people do art at a serious level for self actualization. They are aware that the time they put in, what they produce won't be "paid for", but they still do because it's still worth it. Jazz is no different than other art forms in that respect. There are more poetry books than poetry readers and probably (a lot) more jazz players than the "paying" market needs.
I see the "service industry" angle as it's a performance that the venue arranges because it helps with their revenues. But not enough that they can't do without in most cases unless it's a dedicated jazz club. In fact during most shows at Toronto's biggest jazz club (The Rex), musicians' income is whatever they can get in the tip jar. Bar pays the musicians only when they charge for cover which happens at certain "primetime" hours, mostly in the weekend evenings.
The thing is most people enjoy playing in a band in front of a real audience (like most writers want to be published even if the publisher says they won't pay them). It is "service" but it's not cleaning tables for free. It has it's rewards. It's a great way for musicians to gain experience and play with more experienced players. It's "volunteering" for your own benefit.Last edited by Tal_175; 04-23-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Wow, that would wake the audience up.
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In reality an amateur musician with a day job can't compete in quality with a pro, not in NYC. The standards are too high. So if it's a place with reputation, they are not going to hire a band to play for free because everyone understands the value. But a lot of places dont have budget for music anyway, so they only happy if someone volunteers to play for free. Usually though, its singer songwriters or rock bands. Not many jazz musicians, if any.
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Originally Posted by andrew42Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Because that's the next step down that path.
Originally Posted by Drumbler
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
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In my professional life I work a lot with start-ups. One thing I have to tell clients all the time is that the customer doesn't have to make your business work for you. If they have unreasonable expectations, they have unreasonable expectations. If they don't value the quality you offer, they don't value the quality you offer. If they are paying more for less elsewhere, they are going to pay more for less elsewhere.
I wish I could have made a living as a craftsman or artist, but the public is not interested in paying money to hear most of us play jazz (or the Piedmont blues that I spent decades playing). There seem to be a couple of cities where the VERY BEST might eke out a living. For the rest, it doesn't matter how much you have given to your art or how empirically good you are. If they are not willing to pay you to play, they aren't going to pay you to play.
But the flip side to that is that you don't owe it to anyone to play for free. Why bother? I think we all know that playing for free isn't going to magically transform into the exposure needed to command a reasonable fee later. The problem isn't exposure, it's the market. The market is going away, not the other way around. So if it isn't going to pay your bills you better be doing it for love. And if playing for free at a gig doesn't bring you joy --F it!
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I play in a big band and an octet. Most of the players involved in these groups are pros in music. There might be a few who can make a middle class living at it (I'm not sure about that) but nobody is making much money playing in groups of 19 or even 8.
My octet was playing for dinner twice a month and yet we had pros .. not names you'd be likely to know, but players like the lead alto for a band you'd know. One of them gigged all the time with good bands (names you'd know locally and maybe beyond) but I can't believe there'd be much money. Most of the good players taught; some in a music store type situation, others in regular schools.
At least one former NYC Broadway guy gigged all the time -- but I think it helped that his wife had a tech job of some kind.
One guy I play with does Real Estate Open House gigs with a singer. Trio or quartet. One high end Realtor uses them at his open houses for big homes. I think they pay around $100 per person. Another guy, a guitarist who is well known locally plays nursing home and hospices -- I think he may have some kind of training or credential for working in those situations.
I know some truly great players. The ones I know all teach.
Some of the players I know who take the trouble to be leaders and book gigs often report that they pay their sidemen decently and may not make anything themselves.
There may well be players around who are able to get enough high paying gigs to make a decent living, maybe we'll hear from some in this thread.
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When I have friends over for a party, I have to put my guitars in storage. The last time we had a Christmas party some friends were singing carols and they asked me to play. I told them my wife would come around and collect $10 from everyone. That didn't go over well at all. Losers.
David
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What a topic. In my mind is shows how we have to be able to adapt to changing times, social values, and markets. And accordingly, we have to put a realistic value on what we are trying to offer given the current climate so that we can make good decisions.
I personally feel that the old verse of "Casting your pearls before swine" may apply here, at least a little. But, maybe that is arrogant of me to hold Jazz music, especially well-played Jazz music, in such high esteem.
I dunno....
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Here's a thought.
If the idea that jazz used to be an elite club were true because back then pro musicians were plenty busy performing and didn't have time to teach amateurs on the side, wouldn't the worst thing to do be to teach hoards of amateurs then dispatched to the music marketplace to compete against the teaching pro, directly where they live and try to work, offering less value, for less?
Seems to me teaching others to do what you depend upon would be the definition of counter productive. Even more so if the amateur student hoards' inferior music is performed and spread around enough that people in general grow to believe jazz just isn't that good a sounding music. So the harder it is to make it as a pro, the more one strives to make it by teaching others to do that same work...
Anyone ever consider the way to save jazz might be to stop teaching it?
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by pauln
May be you haven't given much thought to the idea you're proposing
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This came to mind.
In the NYC of my youth, the playground I played ball in had a section with tennis courts. To use them, you had to have a "tennis permit", meaning you paid a fee to play tennis.
My guess is that a lot of people who paid that fee didn't play tennis well enough to get paid to play -- and knew perfectly well they never would.
Should they have given up? Should teachers have refused to teach them?
I know, it's far from a perfect analogy, but the fact is, people like to play this music and enjoy playing for others' enjoyment.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Not even if it turns out that the gig leads to a year of great gigs?
Not even to play with someone who will turn out to be your playing partner for the next few years?
Not even if it turns out that {insert name here} is in the audience?
You don't know what you miss out on when you turn down that sixty dollar gig to keep your reputation as a Hundred-Dollar Player intact. That's why that kind of 'line in the sand' attitude is short-sighted at the minimum. And you're not a dumb guy, so I was pretty surprised to see it from you.
You play on. I'll take the ones that fall below your standard, and gain the benefit.
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Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 02-24-2019 at 06:17 AM.
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Market forces at work:
Note: When red line goes below horizontal green line musician pays to play.
Last edited by Drumbler; 02-24-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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