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Wow. Typically I have no time or patience to read all of the wonderful replies. Let me say this to cut to the chase. I hope it's still relevant.
I blame the musician. Anyone who cuts the balls off working musicians should be shot. You can't blame the club owner. He's just trying to make money. He will cut costs wherever he/she can. But I'm a musician. I can own that point of view.
I blame the musician for allowing the public to devalue your art to the extent of demanding it for free. Insecure anyone? No balls anyone? I will not give it away. I will look for a creative and different paradigm. But stealing is stealing. And F that. Hobby Joe who cuts me off at the knees? F you.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by henryrobinett; 07-07-2017 at 11:03 PM.
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07-07-2017 09:41 PM
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Love the knowing equanimity of this post.
Originally Posted by citizenk74
Someone else can have my place at The Wall. There's a size 7 1/2 dent pre-bashed. You're welcome.
Realising he was about to fall and that there was nothing he could do to prevent it, my aged uncle would simply sigh - and say, "Here we go again."
I think Peggy Lee (or at least her persona here) has - er - 'balls', too:
Then there's:
On the other hand, 'noblesse oblige':
Last edited by destinytot; 07-08-2017 at 06:19 AM.
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Actually they are very much the same especially in the early days, but even today many programmers and sysadmins (I was both at different times) are musicians. In college talking to a counselor about this they said compSci and music majors are very similar because both require same sense of abstract logic. Music and programming are both very creative outlets. Originally Posted by fep
Everyone knows you don't play Jazz for money it about expressing yourself. There is the same aspect in programming world with the FOSS (Free Open Source Software) creative programmers sharing their ideas and concepts.
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I think there are similarities in the way you described. I've said many times where I work that I think the software engineers have the most creative job in the office. Originally Posted by docbop
The difference I was referring to are in regards to the job opportunities and financial awards available to software engineers vs. jazz guitarists. I work at a medium size company in San Diego with about 150 employees, maybe about 30 of them are software engineers making about 80k and up. And, they have a 401K and health benefits.
This is just a tiny piece of the San Diego economy. This tiny piece of the market probaly has 10 times as many 80k+ jobs as the entire population of San Diego Jazz Guitarists. I'm not sure there is one Jazz Guitarist in San Diego making 80k, maybe, maybe not?
Being a jazz guitarist is a labor of love and sacrifice.Last edited by fep; 07-09-2017 at 12:05 AM.
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This is a perennial topic. My take is that the venue owners are not to blame; the PROs are not to blame; Joe Hobby is not to blame. They're all scapegoats.
What's to blame is that almost no one will bother to go out to listen to jazz any more (in the US, or perhaps just here in the Twin Cities; I don't know about other places)- it is no longer a popular form of music and hasn't been for decades. Criminy, there is a video of Pasquale Grasso playing brilliantly in a club in New York and there are about 7 people there listening. Locally certain national jazz acts *might* sell out a club like The Dakota or Vieux Carre. Better known local acts like Maud Hixson, the Wolverines, South Side Aces might fill up a room. But most times, not so much. Jazz groups are as likely to clear a room out as to fill one up.
I hear and read similar laments from blues, rock and folk musicians.
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I'm really sorry I shared my fantasy of partnering with the sweet Hawaiian guy who owns the coffee shop down the street. This thread has taken such a ridiculously nasty turn I think some of you should really be ashamed of yourselves. I'm sorry the world isn't beating a path to your door to shower you with money and adulation. As has been pointed out here and elsewhere that's sadly also true of a lot of great musicians that we all admire but who are unknown outside of a small circle of fans. If fame and fortune is what you desire go be the next Katy Perry.
The topic is how the PROs are strangling local music by killing off all the small venues where beginning to intermediate musicians get their start. Which reminds me the venue I'm talking about seats less than 50 people. Exactly how much do you think a venue that size could afford to pay you sanctimonious jerks who want to shoot your fellow musicians? Even if you had a big following and could pack the place it probably wouldn't be enough to earn a living on.
Meanwhile if I followed through on my idea (not saying I will but I could afford to) how many musicians do you think would be impacted? How would you be impacted if a small venue in your neighborhood opened up offering live jazz several nights a week? That was this guy's dream when he opened 10 years ago and the license fee is the only thing standing in his way.
I know I shouldn't post when I'm po'ed but this is what's wrong with musicians. Instead of getting creative and finding a way to achieve their dreams they're busy pi$$ing on somebody else's ideas.
Rant over, flame away...
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I guess I haven't followed too closely but whose being really nasty? For me, I'm not looking for fame or fortune. I just want fair and not to be ripped off. But I never got into playing or writing music to give it away. Never, ever never. And I'm shocked ar those who profess to love music and think it's totally fine to rip musicians creative efforts off.
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So where are these musicians choosing jazz as a route to fame and fortune? I must be missing something.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's assumed in America that it's your patriotic duty to choose a career that will make you wealthy, because if you choose something modest, you don't seem to have a right to complain when people screw you over.
I also take exception to those that think there is something unpure or grotesque about pursuing art and trying also to derive some income from it.
Here's some info about ASCAP for those who rather not remain uninformed. Decide for yourselves, but as a musician, don't choose ignorance
Why ASCAP Licenses Bars, Restaurants & Music VenuesLast edited by cosmic gumbo; 07-09-2017 at 11:06 PM.
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Did he negotiate? If it's a very small venue he could get it down to a dollar a day. Originally Posted by tonyp145
Everything is negotiable.
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That wouldn't be me - because what I call grotesque is imputing monetary pursuit as base motive. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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(EDIT: The comment below stands, though I'd misunderstood PRO - taking it to mean 'professional'. Pardon my international dimension.) Originally Posted by tonyp145
From what I've seen (i.e. in this neck of the woods) there are some pros who end up just phoning it in on a circuit of well-paid government-funded gigs - gigs which account for a significant proportion of their income.
What disturbs me about that situation is what it says about culture among the parties involved. I think it tends to cheapen art by negatively influencing Joe Public's perception.
Moreover, that culture tends to drive up prices at more humble venues; the fees are so inflated - fees paid from the public purse - that even 10% of such fees is beyond what humble venues can afford.
The creative projects of pros working to high standards rarely get a look in. I imagine that's because they're not considered to have enough popular appeal, but I suspect that pros with creative projects don't bother knocking on the door to that circuit. I think pros ought to reclaim - for Culture's sake - valuable public resources assigned to culture.
Quality counts.Last edited by destinytot; 07-10-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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I had the good fortune many years ago to have a one on one conversation with the great Ornette Coleman. He says the problem has always been the same, since the beginning. How to make money as an artist. The artist needs to survive. It's a full time job being an artist. How does one do it? That's the question. The ANSWER does NOT involve cheapening it to the point of devaluation by giving it away. That's what the amateurs can do because it's so fun. It's just a hobby. But then HE devalues it so the person who spends all day and his entire life can derive a worthwhile income for survival. Yet society values music. They just no longer have to pay for it because everyone just wants to give it away, and then criticize professionals as cheapening the spiritual experience of the art by demanding money. That's just BS.
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I think it's a mistake to conflate all music with 'spiritual experience' - lumping them together without finer differentiation or distinction. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
As for criticising professionals, my criticism is against those who habitually punch below their weight. As I wrote on the thread about the the term 'Chord Melody':
- the level on which I think it matters being on the widest - societal - level.But on another level, I think it matters a lot - because when you raise the level of the water, all the boats rise.
But - rather than throwing public money at the problem - I think government should take a line of benign neglect. If culture goes the way of the Dodo, so be it (though I think it will go the way of the Phoenix*, myself).
Moreover, I believe the solution lies in cooperation - but not between professional musicians (though I do believe the live experience to be a trump card).
I think professional collaborations between musicians/performers and others from outside music have sufficient potential to restore order.
If (as it perhaps might be, in an ideal world), the chief distinction between - on the one hand - performances at corporate private events (with fancy caterers and sommeliers), concert halls, clubs and restaurants, and those - on the other - at the corner café were that of scale (size), it would seem reasonable for remuneration to be reflected in the scale of fees.
Because - regardless of whether the performer always gives of their best - different types of gig involve different levels of inconvenience.
And I think that for most of the above types of gig, compensation for inconvenience is where the basis of trade resides . "Fee = what it costs me in time and hassle + food + transport, minus fun and/or other value expressed as coin." Who would sacrifice Art for coin? (Probably an Artist* - "Burn, baby, burn!")
But, for me, scale (size) isn't the chief distinction.
Not being a 'relativist', I believe in merit. Quality matters more than quantity.
(EDIT I'm reminded of the opera thread, and the questionable value of enhancements brought about by Super-Sizing...)
Just because he doesn't talk about them doesn't mean Joe Hobby hasn't got criteria. I fancy Joe Hobby to be Parsifal - healing the wounded Fisher King... so that all may prosper.Last edited by destinytot; 07-10-2017 at 09:54 AM.
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Don't worry folks. With the road we are going down in the US, there will be so many people out of work or making a poor income that they won't have money to pay internet fees, cell phone fees, buy video games, online gamble or any of the other fancy electronic pastimes that have replaced listening to music.
When that happens, we will all have to sit around and actually talk to each other. We might even start singing and making music together again to ease the pain and liven things up. Then maybe music will be appreciated again for the healing and enjoyment in can bring.
Then, maybe working musicians might be able to earn a decent living. It still won't be easy, but at least they might have a chance as a new generation falls in love with music again.
Just a wild, random thought....
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What? A complete straw-man. No one said people are choosing jazz for fame or fortune and no one said you have to choose a career that will make you wealthy. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I think that's noble, fep - but I don't think the latter are your friend. Originally Posted by fep
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It feels like we've been talking past each other for the past few days so why don't we try being more direct? This was your post immediately after I suggested that I might be willing to cover part of a venue's PRO fee in exchange for a regular gig. I didn't say anything about playing for free or seeing no value in music so maybe this comment wasn't directed at me, but I interpreted it that way. If I'm wrong and you were not referring to my post than please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
But if it was directed at me I hope you will please elaborate on how my specific proposal would negatively impact you as a musician. And if you could find a way to do that without insulting me personally I think that would be a bonus.
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Asking me to reply in a manner that wouldn't insult you personally kinda implies that I've already insulted you, and I'd have to keep my nature in check not to do it again? Originally Posted by tonyp145
I think you did take things too personally, I try to add the quotes of an individual if I'm personally adressing one of their posts....but now that you mention it, you did say you'd enjoy a weekly gig from this fellow if you went halves with him on paying his music license and you didn't care if you got paid....that sounds like playing for free, or worse, paying him to allow you to play....perhaps it's me that is misunderstanding you.
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Some jazz musicians were accused of complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. Maybe I misinterpreted that part of the narrative... Originally Posted by fep
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Who? I never knew any jazz musician complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. They'd be crazy. Jazz is way too small. Treated with respect? Yeah. Not being ripped off? Yes. Being able to get gigs, making a living, yes. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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[QUOTE=henryrobinett;787106]Who? I never knew any jazz musician complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. They'd be crazy. Jazz is way too small. Treated with respect? Yeah. Not being ripped off? Yes. Being able to get gigs, making a living, yes.
If the girls aren't shaking their skirts on the dance floor, you probably aren't bringing home much money. Bands that can get people to dance and get sweaty (thirsty) get paid. Tears in your beer gets it done too. It really is about putting them in the bar and out of the chairs. I don't understand how you do that with jazz in this day and age. I've never seen it. So making a living playing jazz guitar? Not the easiest career choice.
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When you call a fellow jazz musician "Joe Hobby" your intent is to belittle and insult, is it not? You think because I didn't choose a life of poverty as a full-time musician that I am less serious about my craft? Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
As for the coffee shop, if I partner with him on this it will open up that venue to other musicians to play there. That opportunity doesn't exist today. It would be different if I was approaching an existing venue and undercutting their existing bands, that would be unethical. Anyway it's all moot because I have a member of my trio who is a full time musician so I don't take gigs that don't pay.
Anyway I declare this horse thoroughly beaten.
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[QUOTE=manleyman123;787224]
That's not entirely true. Although I have find my share of dance gigs in the past, I play jazz just about exclusively now. I generally make $150-$300 per gig. Not as many of them, but I wouldn't say that was nothing. That's jazz, and often my original music. A mixture of standards bop and 75% mine. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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The problem, as I see it, you still undercut the competition. If you bring a trio that normally would pay $200 a man, let's say. If you agree to not get paid, you make it difficult for me to negotiate my price for my trio. The bar manager is going to bristle paying me $600 as opposed to $400, regardless that my group might be a lot better with a larger draw. That's where the whole thing begins to crumble. Originally Posted by tonyp145
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First they say ASCAP and BMI want too much money. Then they'll tell you you're too expensive and they can get an act cheaper than you. Originally Posted by RClegg
Nobody is as full of crap as club owners in the US.
Hire a DJ or have karoke. That's all I have to say to them.
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