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As someone who gigged in SoCal in the 80s, Pay-to-play is a particular bugbear of mine. As of 2011 it still had club-owners thinking it could work -- I've walked miles stapling leaflets to telephone poles trying to get attendance to cover those fees ...
Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
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06-28-2017 10:39 PM
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We always stuck a tip-jar out in front of the stage, ptp or no. "Gravy", we called it. Bastard club-owners couldn't account for it against our take. Originally Posted by ragman1
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That's where I draw the line. I'm only now just starting to introduce standards into my repertoire, so I can't comment much on the jazz side. I can say it's much harder to get the exact same dollars today than it was 20 years ago when I wasn't as good of a performer. I have one venue where I do a solo show and do it for dinner and drinks, because I like the owner and the place isn't big enough for her to get enough people in to recoup what I would normally get. Since I want to gig for the rest of my life, I can envison playing for only dinner and drinks in the future, but I won't pay. I'd rather be a busker.
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It continues to amaze me that some top players in my area, in between the name-gigs, will play for dinner and a pittance in tips. And, lots of great players play weekly rehearsal bands.
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I haven't heard of outright pay-to-play in my area, but there's the "exposure" justification for NO pay. It's common among visual artists around here, too- worse, actually, artists often have to pay to be entered in shows, gallery sit, and of course, provide wine & cheese for openings.
There's a lot of open mics and First Friday-type events where local amateurs play for free.
Among my friends who do paying gigs, I hear stories of last minute cancellations or being stiffed because of a small crowd. Solo acts seem to get more work.
It seems like the only people making much money performing are doing "society" gigs, or "name" acts at places with a cover or selling tickets.
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Change photographer to musician
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Pay-to-play started in rock music. The first I heard of it was the 80's but I guess it goes back to the 70's.
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I was a photographer when the medium went from film and chemistry to digital and computers....and internet...the same thing that killed music as a career also killed photography.
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The digital world brought some great things, but it also has a horrible effect on people too. People who would never steal as much as a pencil have no qualms stealing music, movies, books, software, if it's digital they will steal it. Then the telephone started the world of the 800 pound gorilla internet has wimps everywhere trolling for attention. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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The city I now live in has a "band(it) director" that runs 3 or 4 18 piece big bands around the area. To play in any of them, you have to pay a $30 "initiation" fee, then pony up $25 a month to him to stay in. You then work all gigs for free and he pockets any proceeds. Pathetic, IMO.
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And people are paying him? That's up to $1800/month just from the dues. Not a princely living, but not bad as a sideline. Hard to say what he makes off the gigs, but it might add up to a princely living, dunno. I'd pass.
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For the most part it's a millennial world as far as entertainment. A lot of them think music should be free. Nothing us old farts can do about it.
I'm not paying to play. No way.
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Lot of this is driven by real estate prices and fees.
I use to play at a suburban weekly chess club which met in the upstairs/back of a church. We were well-behaved and the pastor let us teach kids chess at his weekly summer camp sessions. Chess club probably got the better of the deal. (Back in the 70's, the NYC chess venues were frequently over an inexpensive restaurant, in walk-up spaces....now these no longer exist.)
In NYC suburbs, people in big houses might have spaces for jam sessions, if spouses, kids, etc. will put up with it. Apt. dwellers---not so easily arranged.
I've played in student groups when I worked in NYC...I found I could play OK in real time live sessions, and the value of the sessions depended on how well people "dug into" tunes, and learned them. Am I going to pay $50/week to play with a bunch of people whose ability and commitment, is maybe questionable....probably not.
The golf course I play at has live music 3 or 4 nights/weeks with open mike sessions, one night/week. I keep saying I'm going to hook up with a girl from HS who studied voice at Manhattan School of Music, but so far inertia and travel hassle, hasn't allowed that to happen...It's a fringe suburban location, she lives in Manhattan which is $30 travel and 1.5 hrs. time to get to my place, then a 30-minute drive to get out to the golf course, and then the same thing reversed at the end of the night. A lot of aggravation to be able to play 3-4 songs at a time.
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We used to pay to play, in a sense, back in the '60s. We would rent the American Legion, VFW, or whatever was available, charge at the door, and hope to make money. We mostly made a little. That's not what is being discussed above, though. We were just our own promoters.
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To Stevebol, In regard to his post that now have vanished, ...
I don't think your video was slow. I do think pro film format is 35mm though, today practice is to shoot at 35mm, transfer to digital for post FX than back to tape ... . Once I saw some early Scorcese's effort at 16mm, in theater. It came out at 1/4 of screen area and the sound was really bad experience ... Regarding birds making music, here are some MIDI birds
On topic ...
Pay to play? No, do not do that.
Rent the place to organize own gig? Yes, by all means.
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
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The Walking Dead translates well from 16mm to the big screen TV's. I haven't seen 8mm that looked good on movie screens. It has to be perfect to translate to even big screen TV's. The 'art' is in what can be done with small formats. I saw the movie 'The Wrestler' with Mickey Rourke in a theater. It was 16mm and it looked great. Originally Posted by Vladan
It's that little bit of grit that makes the Walking Dead look so good on TV.
Digital has come a long way. I think you have to have excellent colorists. Analog technology is a portal to the past.
I wonder if the ability to edit endlessly in the digital realm has impacted performing. Young musicians can play. They're just sorry ass performers.
Quentin Tarantino still uses 35mm. Not a huge fan but he's definitely interesting. Eastwood does.
I agree. Don't pay for a gig. Rockers could be incredibly stupid.
Midi birds. Lol.
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I just came back from NYC, where I heard a sextet consisting of 4 well known guitarists, bass and drums. The music was great. I knew three of the names, living in California.
The club was small. Admission was $20. Drinks were reasonably priced. Two sets.
I don't know how the revenue is divided, but the math indicates that the musicians weren't getting anywhere near rich.
Those guys have nationally recognizable names. If this group can be heard for $20 admission in an intimate club, what is the average guy worth?
I assume this is a labor of love for these players -- not their bread and butter. But, it still says something about the economy for jazz guitar.
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I neither get any money from playing in big band (we are all volunteers in there for a case to get jazz live in our hometown), but if the band leader would say "pay to me 25 usd a months if You want to saty in" then I would raise my hat and say hello... Originally Posted by ah.clem
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what is the purpose of "pay to play"? i've never heard of this! i get some $ for playing at the wineries in my area. let's drop this thread and never mention it again! i don't want to give these people any ideas!!
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