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Apologies for thread necromancy.
Originally Posted by docsteve
Guitar players don’t adopt English they adopt American which is distinct (and more similar to German in some respects with the note duration names)
I teach US nomenclature myself because I think it makes more sense and much material for electric/contemporary guitar is American anyway. Otoh then they get taught minims, crotchets and quavers by the rest of British music education. Hopefully they end up understanding both.
I have to be very careful not to mix them up together tho.
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10-08-2023 05:16 AM
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the one note chord concept can really help as well… Originally Posted by Geospectrum
it also really clears it out for the piano
Tbh I use my ears a lot. If I hear a ii V and the chart looks like a sea of numbers, I play that.
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I think Sam Sherry said it best.... be able to sight read fly shi.... we're not all dead...LOL
I have and still work in Big Bands, lots of them. Two work out of my books. I'm called the Libranian...really.
We play every week at different locations.... never rehearse. Basically we're all pros and we all can sight read Fly shi... LOL although pro charts the last 20 years are like art work.
The players change due to who's in town or has better paying gig... ( they're great sight reading practice)
Charts have the ink..."what the ink implies" and also get opened up for solos etc... The two BB's that work out of my books.... don't usually have a Pn. I can cover piano parts... and generally the result may be different but usually better. (at least that's what said by soloist) Anyway... BB's are difficult gigs even if you can sight read well. They're mental and physical workouts...
What helps keeps... music fresh... we have different pro soloist show up... and Player/arrangers bring in new charts every week... (myself included).
With out a killin rhythm section... BB's suck.
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There are a couple of common situations. Originally Posted by Geospectrum
One is that the sequence of chords reflects variations in the extensions being played by the horns. So, if you see D9 followed by D7b9, somewhere there's a horn playing an E and then an Eb. If you can play that on guitar it will sound good, but if the sequence is too fast, you don't play either of the 9ths. Instead, you play a D7, or maybe just an F# and a C. In this case you're using the full chord symbol to tell you what not to play -- that is, for example, don't play an E when the horns are playing an Eb.
The other common situation, depending I think on how modern the charts are, is a quick half step modulation. So, you might get 2 quick beats of G7, a single beat of Ab7 and then back to G7. Generally, that kind of thing is easily playable on guitar by sliding up a fret so you just have to get used to it. You can fake your way past the Ab7 by laying out for that beat or playing a toneless thud, but I think it's not that difficult to recognize the situation for what it is and make the slide, in tempo.
If the chord sequence is not as simple as either of those two examples, then you can thud through it, simplify it or practice it. I play in two big bands, one of which has about 500 tunes in its book so repeating anything is rare. It's a sightreading situation. Often, the tune is counted off while I'm still smoothing out the chart on my stand. I don't feel great about thuding through something, although it can work (not great). So, the question is whether I can figure out the simple, playable version on the fly. And, the answer is, maybe.
A lot of this depends on the arranger. If I see Bill Holman I don't worry. If I see Gordon Goodwin, I'm a little more nervous.
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Yea, Goodwin's "Swingin' For The Fences" cannot be sight read at the tempo they play it at. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Goodwin emailed the guitar part to Geissman before they recorded it.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
I remember having that chart pulled at a Gig, years ago... Sweet Georgia Brown. It helped to have Bone(s) and sax(s) doubling lines. Playing the tune was pretty simple besides that... right. I mean the tempo wasn't the problem.
Typical Goodwin... mixed sectional soli's with big Tutti finish.
I dig most of his tunes and arrangement... got to perform with Gordon a few times.
I have some of his new charts in one of my books. (always have a pair of glasses in BB gig bag) . Generally I sit in back with rhythm section so we can stay in contact. Room is always difficult... except for the festival and CC gigs LOL. GG uses a lot of #11 doms...Last edited by Reg; 10-08-2023 at 11:09 PM.
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Swinging For the Fences isn't even listed as one of his hardest charts. I think it's in the second from hardest category. Check the Alfred site.
The guitar is used like a horn, so the guitarist has to read the same stuff that the piano and/or horns are reading.
It wouldn't be difficult at a nice, slow tempo, but sight reading it at the listed tempo of "fast swing" would take a really good reader.
The trick to sight reading it for a mere mortal, might be to recognize that the guitar can either play all that stuff perfectly with the horns or clam it up, making the clams stand out like sore thumbs. And, even if it's perfect, it won't add more than some texture to the parts since the notes seem to be duplicating other instruments (from a quick look at the chart). So, the guitarist with discretion will lay out if he can't really read that stuff and play the chords when so instructed.
Hardest stuff I've had to read, I think, were some Steps Ahead charts, with chords spelled out on staffs, the page dense with ink and subtle changes in the voicings as you plow through it.
The more I've played with big bands 1) the better I've gotten at reading and 2) the better I've gotten at figuring out how to get through the tune doing something other than reading all the ink correctly.
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Even Grant Geissman didn't have to sightread that chart for the recording session. I read an interview with Goodwin where he said he always emails the charts for his recording sessions TWO WEEKS before the session. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Like you said, the tempo on the record is way too fast for a guitarist to play it without clams galore. My first time, I took your advice and laid out on the difficult parts in the beginning soli with the horns, and got by fine.
As an arranger of 70 charts, I would have to be a sadist to open up a chart at that tempo with a soli like that. At least you can hide behind the horn like I did until I learned the soli by ear (we're not allowed to take the charts home to shed). After that, I could play it at tempo.
There are still arrangers who don't know how to write for the guitar, and wind up writing piano parts for the guitar, rather than take the time to LEARN how to write for the guitar.
I played on an entire album like that, and at least on gigs I could blend with the pianist/arranger, and I told him so, and he seemed okay with that.
and loved my playing.
But then on the album's recording session, the idiot didn't even bother to have the piano tuned, and so he couldn't even play on the session. It was a disaster. I haven't seen the asshole in 35 years and hopefully never will.
Last night, we played my arr. of Rain or Come Shine, and I wanted to make it a Bari sax feature, and gave the bari sax player a lot of room to blow.
The regular bari player could play the hell out of something like that, but the regular Bari player didn't show up, and sent a guy who mainly played shows and couldn't blow his way out of a paper bag. The sub chickened out (Thank God!), and gave it to one of the two monster tenor players, who transposed the bari changes and blew the hell out of it.
I could have been a prick, and stopped the band and said, "I wrote that for solo for bari", but I understood what was happening, and I didn't embarrass the lame ass bari player, because I knew he was just a lame ass show player, and he didn't want to make a fool out of himself in front of some of the best players in NY.
The chart went great, and we had a ball, and I didn't say a word to the Bari player.
A trombone player gave me an interesting piece of advice: NEVER write an eighth note on the downbeat of a measure. Always make it a quarter note, or the horn player will mess up the measure. Learn something new every day!
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Great stories and yes...Sgcim. yea I had a BB gig last night, (my book) and pulled out a few burnin soli charts at stupid tempos. The personal always changes... but we had a smokin rhythm section, Mark Rossi sat in on piano, we always have fun... and lots of players who could lead their section... so why not?
It does create a charged feeling. And... audiences love it.
Yea Rick.... what "sometimes" makes charts better... is what we play that's not notated out, especially solo sections. And even cleaning up harmony... after you hear harmony from horn voicings etc...
I tend to rhythmically and harmonically.... adjust rhythm section parts. I fill in and clean up harmony...especially on charts I've played... I tend to feel... playing the same thing over and over gets, old etc. And generally we as rhythm section players.... know what arrangers were trying to create LOL. (Obviously not always.)
Maybe good or bad....
Ever play any of Maria Schneider arrangements.... I haven't in awhile... but seem to remember that they had moments...LOL get out the glasses.
Haven't seen you in a while... hope your well
Reg
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Been good, thanks. Hope you're well too.
Got through a piano-less BB (Piestrup) gig on Sunday. So much easier without having to listen to all those irritating correct chords from the piano!<g>
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You all do the Sunday thing every Sunday... I liked subbing in that band.... I know all the old dudes LOL.
I'm at the Ocean view last two sundays this month and next... Sit in....I keep adding new tunes.
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That band plays on the second Sunday of each month. Originally Posted by Reg
I'll plan on making it to Ocean View.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-12-2023 at 09:30 PM.
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I had just finished charts on the themes to Chinatown and Taxi Driver, and I asked the top trumpet player there if he ever heard the Chinatown theme. He wasn't sure, and asked me if that was the one with Clint Eastwood!
I laughed and said, no, Jack Nicholson. Then he told me he studied with the guy who played the theme, Uan Rasey!
The leader promised me two charts, and only gave me one, so we didn't have time to do it
I'm trying to see if the two themes will work for BB, because they're usually played by strings. Chinatown can be opened up; Taxi Driver I just added a shout chorus in double time.
Terence Blanchard tried a small group version of Chinatown, but it didn't work for me.
You two West Coast guys had some real geniuses out there, like Raksin and Goldsmith. Herrmann couldn't even write a BB chart. He was legit all the way.
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Just starting up with a big band who does soley 20s and 30's charts. Mostly banjo music for me, just playing that on guitar. It's kind of interesting trying to play the voicings as written. Gonna give this and effort and see if I can make it musical. We shall see
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I play bigbands only. What I did some years ago is that I used a plectrum/jazz banjo for these old banjo tunes. That is a long scale 4 string banjo. Instead of the jazz banjo tuning, it was tuned to DGCF (two half steps below a guitar). I also had to adapt the string gauge and re-write the guitar part accordingly (ie transpose two half steps up). In that way I could play the banjo by using normal shell chords in the "normal" position. I even used a pickup in the banjo. Originally Posted by callouscallus
It made it more way authentic sounding. You may consider that in due course...
Nb I still have that banjo, but it spends its life in the case, as non of the present bigbands plays these old tunes anymore. Some day...
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For many years there was trio that played in New Orleans Square within Disneyland in Anaheim. It was called the Royal Batchelors. Banjo, clarinet and bass. The banjoist was Harold Grant. He played a 6 string banjo, tuned like a guitar. He sounded terrific.
I've seen them in stores occasionally, but never a high quality instrument.
Until 1966, a banjoist there was Johnny St. Cyr. I just googled it and found out he was the original banjoist on Louis Armstrong's Hot 5 recordings in the 1920s. Reportedly, he also played 6 string.
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There's something really magic about playing the banjo in an acoustic pit band for a musical.
Its timbre is so strong that it blends with the band much more effectively than electric or acoustic guitar.
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One option might be to use a tenor guitar to make the voicings easier, or even to retune the standard guitar for that. I know of some players who have converted guitars to 5 strings, tuned in 5ths. It all depends on your preferences.
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I tune my Gretsch Tenor banjo which I got at a yard sale for $25, to the 'Chicago Tuning', a polite way of saying I'm a lazy sh-t who tunes it to D-G-B-E rather than use 5ths tuning. Originally Posted by sgosnell
One time I did a musical in Manhattan and the thing must have sounded so good that a guy from the audience demanded to know if I used 5th or a guitar tuning.
The guy wouldn't leave me alone, so I stopped ignoring him and said, "You heard it, what did it sound like to you?"
He said, "I don't know; that's why I'm asking you!"
I finally used one of my mystical answers to get rid of the PITA, and said, "Some things are destined to remain a mystery!"
He just walked away, disgusted.
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Looking at the sheet music for the tenor banjo I'm guessing it must be written for 5ths tuning. It just lays out a little strange on the the upper 4 strings of the guitar. Strange but not totally unplayable. It would take me a long while to adjust to playing these parts on the upper four strings of the guitar, and probably not sound close to what it should. Then again guys like django and Eddie Lang were playing great stuff on those upper four stings, it just doesn't have that percussive quality that the banjo has
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Interesting conversation, I just got a gig with a pops symphony 1920s - 30s playing banjo and guitar. For the banjo parts, I have a very cool old 6-string vega banjo from the 1920s ala Johnny St. Cyr, but I also have an old B&D Silver bell tenor banjo that I have just never gotten around to getting fluid on the 5ths tuning. Maybe this will be my opportunity, but I probably will end up bagging the tenor on the real arranged stuff—which is probably most of it; it’s an orchestra, after all. Anyway, I wish I had more gigs like this—I’ve got a lot of vintage gear specialized to little niche things and I rarely have an excuse to really delve into it, but I’m looking forward to this one.
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I agree that sometimes the scores have chord symbols with "ridiculously overdetermined" guitar parts with all kinds of extentions and embellishments. In a big band, there's no reason for the guitar to play all that - actually quite the opposite. Slim down the chords to the absolutely necessary. The third and the seveth will do and will be enough to hear if it's major or minor or is dominant or not. In a big band there's so many voices that there's no chance a root or a fifth will be missing from the total sound of the band. The guitarist doesn't have have to play it all himself. Small shell chords will also make it easier to have a good voice leading - playing small counter melodies. Small chords also makes it easier to stay out of the way of others. Such an approach worked for Freddie Green and Jim Hall. It could work for us too. However, it could be a good idea - if time permits it - that the rhythm section go separate from the rest of the band and practice their ability to sound like one tight unit. Basie's "All American Rhythm Section" of the late 1930's (Jo Jones, Water Page and Freddie Green) did this a lot - and was rewarded by being the best rhythm section of the time.
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I heard a player playing Freddie style the other day and thought this.
He was using a solid body. Good player. In the audience, he was louder than the piano; he might not have known that because of the way the pianist had his speakers placed. There was a lot of low frequency content in his sound and he was playing four note chords. The pianist was pretty busy. The guitarist was playing the same voicing for four beats in a bar.
When Freddie was playing, the pianist was Basie, who was the opposite of busy. Freddie's guitar produced a percussive, non-sustaining, sound which doesn't sound very bass-y to me, even though he played on the lower strings. And Freddie was never too loud. It also seemed like he moved the voicing on every quarter note, which matched the bassist pretty well.
Can't say I've listened to Freddie enough to be sure about any of this, but my impression is that a lot of planets have to line up to really recreate Freddie. Superficially, it looks easier than it is.
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On a Basie or Basie-like chart, it's a Mortal Sin to be louder than the piano.
That fellow is going to spend an eternity burning in Jazz Guitar Hell!
I don't have a FG obsession, but using a four note voicing on a Basie or Basie-like chart is another reason for spending an eternity in Jazz Guitar Hell.
That fellow you heard is going to be spending an eternity hearing abominations like:
1) Scofield complaining that everyone in the audience was going nuts over everyone in the fusion band he was playing in except him (DB interview).
2)Al Di Meola trying to play over Giant Steps, but playing his rehearsed licks a fret off, and when being told that saying, "Yeah, but they applauded me anyway!"
3) Marc Ribot pontificating that "I don't play mainstream jazz, because there's really not that much that's very good to it." (Radio Interview)
4) Al Di Meola declaring that his music is more creative than any jazz". GP interview.
And so on...
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I think a four note voicing can sound okay in big band rhythm guitar.
In fact, I was taught, decades ago, by a big band guitarist whose heyday was 30s and 40s. He taught 4 note voicings he called "muted string chords" which muted the A and high E strings. That was the bread and butter. Freddie's approach may be the greatest, but it wasn't the only one.
Although I know how to play a shell or other 3 note voicing, sometimes on the fly the primitive part of my brain takes over and I revert to the grips I learned back then. If you hit them right, watch your muting (left hand pressure release) and EQ it correctly, it can sound good.
The more movement, generally the better and definitely don't drown out the piano.
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