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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Ok right there is one big problem that once you learn to see, tunes will be MUCH easier to learn.
The turnaround at the end of GDS is just plain old movement through the cycle. If I was you I would right away start learning the cycle, once you can see it, it's everywhere.
Good luck!!!
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03-17-2016 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagelove
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Whenever I'm walking, or waiting somewhere, or driving, whenever I have a free moment, I take a tune I want to learn, and name all the chord tones.
At first I just take a couple of bars, then I add two more, then two more, etc. Start simple. Start with only the first chord if you have to.
Take the first 4 bars of the tune All The Things You Are: F-7 / Bb-7 / Eb7 / Abmaj7
I start with the 3rd of each chord and name them. Ab / Db / G / C.
Then 5th. C / F / Bb / Eb.
7th. Eb / Ab / Db / G.
Then 9th, 11th, 13th.
Yes, it's hard. Really hard at first. But with practice it gets easier. And it forces me to really know the changes. I do this in the morning while I'm working out and the time flies.
Also, stop telling yourself you suck at memorizing tunes. Unless you've had a brain injury, there's no reason why you can't memorize something. It's just hard work. I think sometimes that people (I'm not saying you) will say, "I suck at ****", when what they really mean is, "This doesn't come easy to me, so F** it, I won't bother to work on it. I'll just use the excuse that there's something in my brain that prevents me from doing it."
BTW, I got this exercise from a Jerry Bergonzi book.Last edited by Dana; 03-22-2016 at 09:26 AM.
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I think what he means, or what I mean, is to just take that turnaround and don't go any further that that for a long while. Those turnarounds are ubiquitous in jazz. Do it until it's memorized and then some.
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Originally Posted by Dana
At my age, I'm pretty in tune with what I'm good at and what I'm not. I'm good at writing. It's what I do for a living. I'm good at tech stuff (for the most part - I'm not a coder or anything, but I could be). This stuff seems very natural to me.
I'm bad at memorizing things in general. I'm not saying I CAN'T, just that it doesn't come naturally or easily to me. I have friends who seem to remember everything, and I really envy that ability.
So you're right, I can do it, it's just hard. But it's harder for some people than it is for others. I accept that this is going to take a good deal of work.
I like the exercise. I may try it.
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I am of the belief that anything can be done or memorized if you know how. I think most of my students don't know until they actually do it how I tell them to. They just don't get it. They'll say they do and will do the exercises but they don't do it. When they do they memorize. It's not magic. It's work. Everyone takes a different amount of work because everyone is different. But it will work and you will memorize.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
The idea is that you'll be playing the bars you are working on then going to the material you've already learned.
And, of course, use the structure of the tune to help the memorization.
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Interesting. Howard Roberts said something like this. I've never done it though. Good idea.
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Thinking functionally and transposing are great ideas. Indeed, transposing forces me to think functionally.
I got a lot out of this Bruce Forman lesson:
https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...-bruce-forman/
He distinguishes between "memorizing" and "learning" tunes. I don't want to give away the whole lesson, but he emphasizes knowing the melody well, and thinking in big functional chunks, like going to the IV, or the vi.
There's nothing earth-shattering, but I always enjoy and get a lot out of Bruce's lessons, especially if I watch them a number of times a few months apart.
Separately, I'm slowly realizing that ear training is a big part of retaining tunes. I have maybe 30 tunes I've learned and could play without a lead sheet, at least when I learned it. If I come back after months of not playing it, I can still sing the melody, and mostly hear what the chords are, but sometimes I can't play it right away. That's just a problem with my ears. (I'm working on it!)
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Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by Dana
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I would say, you need to find out why you are making mistakes.
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Boston Joe, You sound like my "twin". i've had the same issues for many yrs. Question for everyone. While you are playing a tune, what is your thought process? Are you consciously thinking about the chords, melody, and rhythm as you are playing the tune? Or, are you on another level of just "hearing" it. Joe Pass always talked about just playing what he heard. Granted, he was in the stratosphere of players, but does one need to be able to do that on some level? Don't know if i'm expressing this very well, but any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
Bob P.
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Originally Posted by Bob P.
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Originally Posted by Bob P.
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One thing I found that helps me in this area is to invent and memorize a chord-melody arrangement whenever I want to learn a new tune. Thus you learn all the levels of the tune at once. The added bonus is that after you do this with a bunch of tunes your brain reverses the process and you start to get the skill of doing chord-melody arrangements on the fly.
And, while I have your o(or anyone else's) attention, I hope you don't use the real book changes to "four", since they are famously wrong.
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I find when learning a new tune, (if available depending on the tune) I listen to the original version quite a few times to internalize it and then work out at least the root movement on my guitar before even looking at the charts.
I find that if I at least know this, my ear will tell me the chord quality after the listening stage and it's much easier to keep that info in my head when going through the initial learning stages of the tune without relying heavily on the chart.
I guess different strokes for different folks when it comes to memory though.
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I think the important thing here is to spend some time away from the instrument. It's good to have a strong 'picture' of the tune away from the instrument. In the simplest case that might be just the melody.
I think changes etc can come later. I tend to go - melody, bass, inner voices when learning. I usually learn from a vocal version, so the words help me with memorising the tune.
I think it's good to get into singing these things in the shower, so to speak. Obviously for instrumental things like Footprints you'll have to scat them.
A lot of people are shy about singing. But you got to remember that it's not for performance. It's to help you internalise the music.
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
As suggested already, it's worth getting really familiar with common cycles and 2-5-1 patterns because then you can sort of reduce the important chords in a tune to leave those patterns out, as they are so familiar.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Herb Ellis was big on singing while improvising. (Oscar Peterson did that in a way that is audible on his records.) Herb said he "sang" everything he played. He said Joe Pass did too. He also said the horn players he knew did it too but you can never hear them because they have a horn in their mouths and you're hearing the horn. But he thought 'singing what you play' (or 'playing what you sing') connected one's inner musical voice with one's instrument. It's the difference between something that sounds like you and something that sounds like memorized patterns / licks / phrases.
Herb can be heard doing this on his instructional CDs.
Here's a bit from a instructional video he did. (Ray Brown is playing the bass.) The progression is A- / D7 / G / G. Herb plays four bars, then comps so you can play four bars. Anyway, you can hear some of his "singing" while he's playing.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
NGD: 1935 National Duolian
Today, 04:41 PM in Other Styles / Instruments