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03-13-2015, 07:25 AM #126destinytot Guest
My thoughts...
Try as I might, I'm unable to reconcile the value of food on the table with the value of music. They are, for me, oil and water.
As the late Gil Scott-Heron put it, "Whitey's on the moon..." - put people first, I say.
Notable exceptions notwithstanding, using backing tracks for live gigs mitigates against the intuitive creativity of jazz musicians.
Live and let live; 'Aye, there's the rub'...
To me, their use on live gigs is tasteless at best and parasitic at worst. 'Necrophilia' seems a fitting metaphor.
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03-13-2015 07:25 AM
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03-13-2015, 08:11 AM #128destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer
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One area where backing tracks are viable is in clinics and instruction. I said way back, probably on page 1, or another thread, that I was teaching with Shawn Lane back in the day and he used backing tracks of his home band playing some Pakistani rock fusion. There's no way he would've been able to get a pick up band to play that stuff on the fly. And it was incredible.
I think it's completely fine to do a clinic and demonstrate playing with backing tracks. Not all guitar playing, or even jazz guitar playing, is solo guitar.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I like the creative process of making my own backing tracks, which I use in
situations such as senior facilities and hospitals, which often have either low
or no budgets. Creating tracks also is good practice for building arranging chops,
and a library of good-sounding tracks is another source of income; I sell mine to
various local singers and hornplayers; having most of the music in MIDI enables one
to customize the keys, and I generally play bass and rhythm guitar on the tracks
for a more "live" feel, which means redoing those in new keys, but it's easy.
I do prefer to have one other live musician on the backing track gigs, since the
interplay is a key component of any music.
I'd much rather be playing out with tracks than teaching some lazy 10-year-old the latest
metal riffs. My tracks have allowed me to retire from teaching and give real pleasure to
people who need it. And I play with live groups several times a week as well.
Beats the hell out of working.
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I really enjoyed this thread, despite it clearly hijacking the OP. Interesting to read everyone's opinion on the matter.
I've never felt as gross as I did after experimenting with backing tracks during a busking gig (which was also likely due to my own playing being shit at the time, to be fair). demonstrates that there is ALWAYS a way to creatively accommodate an element of the rhythm section in one's unaccompanied performances. The most interesting art often comes from limitations in the medium.
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I think you should make your own accompaniment tracks. That way, there's an honesty to the whole thing. With Protools and Reason, or one of the other DAWs, you should be able to loop in a decent-sounding drum track, then a rhythm guitar track, then bass, maybe play a simple organ or synth pad track, then at the gig, you can spontaneously play and sing along. But it's all truly YOU.
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okay, here's my two cents (probably worth much less than that) ...apologies in advance
the sheer terror displayed by some of the elitists here are a solid indicator that this is not a bad idea, if not a potentially great idea.
the nay sayers consistently want to paint this as a scheister who can't play rocking out to some cold sounding 90s muzak in the corner of a senior center... and, this could certainly be that. one could also take the opportunity to make their own library of cool tracks using live tracks (loop loft, i love you) or even interesting electronic sounds ...maybe that's very not-1960's, but, last time I checked, electronics are kind of a standard component of many modern musicians' toolbox.
with Studio One or Ableton, I could open an arrangement and even dictate that a track loop several different solo sections easily...
hell, if you're really going for it, book some studio time and good players and play through some arrangements, maybe get a couple different solo sections...bonus points if they chastise you for "stealing future work"
it might take a lot of work to get that ship ready to sail, but that's the point...
i've been doing solo loop gigs for a couple years. positive feedback, repeat bookings, decent pay, etc. ...my live sound has been on the jam/jazz/funk side and I mainly play microbreweries, some restaurants, clubs on 'acoustic night' when they want something different (b/c to the club staff you're just 'wednesday') ...but, I have thought that more straight-head jazz w cool BT's could go over well in the right context. I have been in the 'jazz shed' again for a while and would like to expand my rotation to some of the local wineries and other places that aren't quite as crunchy...
on that note, to anyone who does backing track gigs: if someone has ever come up to you and said 'that's not real jazz' ...i owe you a beer. statistically unlikely, besides rude. honestly, nobody gives a shit about jazz but jazz musicians, let alone 'THE TRUE NATURE OF JAZZ' (lol). the vast majority of people choose their music with as much thought as it takes to decide between pizza hut or dominoes; making music for the approval of your guitar playing peers is a losing game. ...the guitar has become as much of a centerpiece for opinion as a musical tool. most folks who even 'play' are pretty much just into the gear. Sad, but true. In that context, do the opinions of some rigid elitists on a guitar forum even matter?
Acting like this is some form of heresy is laughable and sad.
A solo player doing Joe Pass tunes is supposed to define the pinnacle of jazz guitar (don't get me wrong, love chord-melody playing), but a player blowing solos over a track is folly? Nah. It's just aesthetic preference. Authority is a privilege and illusion desired by so many and attained by none...
"I've managed a K-Mart my whole life and we never, NEVER put electronics next to housewares..." is about what I am hearing.
If there is mutual enjoyment between you, listeners, and venue...you've done the job.
hypothetical: let's say i live in buttcrack, indiana and can gig out at some local places...my choices are do the above described cool backing track thing, or, play with Mouthbreather Jr. on keys who wants to do some Kenny G and "I sometimes play outside the church, if the pastor says it's okay" on drums ...I am going with the laptop. I have been in similar situations. Laptop wins every time.
...OR, should I stay in the house so as to do my part to maintain the integrity of 'TRUE JAZZ'? hmm...
Playing with other good players is amazing and there is no substitute for it...when you take a look at who is paying and who is playing though, you have to work with what you have. Also, if this sort of thing tickles your fancy and you can provide nice music for venues in your area...why not?? I don't think anyone's expecting Downbeat to review the gig. Just do your best, do 'you', and be a servant to the music. ...and, don't use Casio-keyboard quality backing tracks
In the end, personally, I would feel that I had given up more of my soul after teaching and kissing the asses of rich parents and their kids all day for the foreseeable future than I would playing to some tracks for easy money at a swanky joint...
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IMO, crucial question is not: Is it really Jazz, if backing tracks are used?
IMO, the real question is: Is it even a gig, if nobody gives a @#$% about music being played?
Should going to do a gig equal going to work? Should Musician equal "Musical labour provider"?
IMO, those are important questions.
It is Jazz if listeners think it is and there's no further discussion, regardless of using backing tracks.
With due respect to micro breweries, restaurants and wine bars ... and other places where people came for whatever reason except to hear YOU and see YOU playing YOUR music ...
... here's some 90's muzak over cold sounding backing tracks ... as used on a real gig, where and when people actually do come to see and hear YOU and YOUR music ... that is where backing tracks have their place ... same tracks used on CD release and elsewhere, because those tracks are the essential ingredient of the music people came to hear and could not care less if the beer is diluted, or whatever ...
(sorry, I know I already posted, but I just love that gig)
Oh, one more thing, if CASIO backing is the sound YOU are looking for and think it suits YOUR music fine, YOU should use it, regardless of what some elitists might suggest.
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Why let some highly-abstract aesthetic principle intrude on your professional prerogative? Intrusion notwithstanding, 'why', indeed?
My objection to playing with backing tracks – ‘rigid elitist’ that I am – is not at all on grounds of aesthetics. (On the contrary, I feel energised at the mere idea being on the edge of discovery.)
It's about valuing and honouring social and cultural traditions – something quite different to what is so colourfully depicted in the ‘Walmart’ reference in the above post.
Because, to me, the end doesn’t justify the means; what elicits ‘terror’ in this ‘rigid elitist’ are the words “by any means necessary”.
...OR, should I stay in the house so as to do my part to maintain the integrity of 'TRUE JAZZ'? hmm..
I accept that people perceive situations differently (assuming they perceive situations at all).
This ‘rigid elitist’ perceives a perfectly possible 'middle way'; 'backing tracks' needn't mean the decline, collapse and disappearance of 'TRUE JAZZ' - and using a looper on gigs needn't mean cultural degeneration. (On the other hand, 't might mean exactly that - in which case my two cents of unsolicited advice would be 'talk it over with the pastor at that church in Buttcrack, Arizona'.)
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What it is or isn't is completely up to the person putting their stuff in the car and going. It's a subjective question with many, many answers.
Also, in my usage, a 'gig' equates to playing music at a bar or club for people who may or may not be coming to see you; a 'concert' is when folks come to a musical event to see your work specifically.
(i have a gig with that funk band at the strip club. vs. i am giving a concert of Kanye West songs on the bagpipes at the Royal Theater, tonight...tickets available online...)
That's the big catch here: none of these questions have single, correct answers. Beyond what it means to you, who cares?
To set definitions of 'this belongs here and not here' is only creating a self-imposed limitation. If you don't dig it, that's totally cool...but, why define what things should or shouldn't be for other people? (which i am not sure is what you were doing anyhow)
Being a musical laborer, for example...my answer is a solid "no way"...for someone else, it's just another day at the office. One of the defining moments of my early adult life was 'playing for a living' and wishing i was just back in the kitchen making the damn food.
The sentiment about whether or not folks are there to see you...once again, this may matter to you, it may not. What about a church organist? They are highly skilled musicians who will only get a speck of appreciation from the folks who hear them play throughout their career (unless you're the lady with the cool show on EWTN). ...most will already know; proper church organists are BAD.ASS. musicians.
With the gigs I mentioned previously, it was a win in my opinion because people in my area do come to hear my music and watch me play...they also aren't roped into sitting and watching it for 2 hours straight. I am not really trying to create an immersive experience. (a lot of these folks are very stoned, much like original jazz fans hehe) ...they want to come tune in for a few songs, go chat with some friends, try to hit on women, whatever. I am a groovy piece of a cool environment.
I'm not selling tickets or putting on a show...but, I do get to go out, get paid, play my own tunes and tunes that I have chosen/arranged and it's all instrumental. ...for me, it's a win. For others, this is gonna mean a million things. for me...happy basscadet with tired hands and the constant mental battle quiet enough to take a day off, done.
Personally, I haven't done a gig like this yet...whether I do remains to be seen. But, I think it's a genuine misstep to dismiss this outright.
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That's all very reasonable as it relates to your personal experience and conduct. I also really appreciate the idea of 'never for money or fun, alone'.
I personally can appreciate honoring the tradition of jazz as well...I love playing with people for the conversational aspect of things above all; I listen for the same reason, too.
My life in the past decade has really forced me to think outside the box in order to be able to cling to some form of musical functionality...I was apprehensive for years about gigging with a looper until a couple shows landed in my lap in 2014. I market it as 'live improvisation' too...so, I can't say from experience that I have gone out and done standards or anything...aside from a couple other people in my little suburban area (many of whom i play with regularly), that's as close as it gets to a "jazz" musician making music up on the fly within an hour drive.
To me, and I may be off...but that's what the cats were doing in the day; it didn't seem like they were trying to embody an aesthetic, they were creating it as a byproduct of their artistic output. ...I digress (big time, heh)
I don't think I'm doing something so cool...but I really try to 'just do it'. I was a guitar tech for Buzzcocks one summer though, maybe some of the punk attitude rubbed off for the better
I have fun. Every night has ups and downs. There's always going to be that group of people who sit and watch every note and the majority come and go and enjoy their night.
Anywho, appreciate the conversation in here (for the most part, hehe) ...and, it was a /k-mart/ reference, fyi jk cheers!
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Yeah I dunno. I have a friend who's really into Ableton. I think it's all good. If you play music that is good and you are passionate about it will be worthwhile whatever it is and however you make it. I'm just a grumpy jazz bastard.
As far as: is it jazz? Just put it out there and let people argue about it. Of course most people don't care.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
as time moves on, society needs to learn how to appreciate an apple for an apple, an orange for an orange. ...at my loop pedal gigs, people ask if i sing, beatbox, play radio covers, etc.. /my/ heart sinks. it's a mandala of creation and destruction. ...this exists at every level of the music industry as well and across all styles. i guess that's just people: they want their cake and to eat it with ice cream and a cherry on top (oh, but do you have one of the 'fancy' bowls..?) people are never satisfied.
BUT, I don't think anyone should be expected to use any type of gear/technology..I don't think it's out of place either (kind of a feeling I got a a few hundred pages back from some folks )
...the trio pedal, is that the one with a little drum machine that responds to how you play? ...i just learned what 'naff' means and i think you're spot on.
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I got a looper last year; I hardly ever use it - and when I do, I don't get the timing of the loop quite right.
But I'd love to become practised in building up sophisticated loops - or looping a short section 'on the fly' - to be able to pull it off live.
Because, 'jazz' or no, I do believe that experience could be fun for me, and perhaps also engaging for listeners.
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RE: loopers/tracks (since it's been a while since this thread has popped up)
I think it's all about using a looper "artistically." Your hear Frisell or Fripp, or even Metheny's "orchestrion"...that ain't guitareoke.
But I'll be honest, I see a guy comp some chords for himself to solo over and call jazz, I'm wondering why he couldn't just practice a bit more and do more with less.
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I will dare to share...forgive the shit note I hit right at the outset, it takes a few revolutions to cover it up. The rest of the confection was fairly doable. This is what I do at gigs, I do some tunes with just bass, some with both. Lots of different feels but this is a pretty typical improvisation for that I would do at a gig.
Pardon my definite non-jazzitude (i'm learnin'!)
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Originally Posted by basscadet
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I use a line 6 M13 for the effects. I didn't loop with anything but delay and the looper itself for the first few years. I feel bad clogging up this thread with a bunch of looping stuff ...but, in a nutshell, I use an Octaver with no dry signal for the bass lines and the percussion is just my hand. I also only did this with bass for a number of years and started working on guitar again about a year and a half ago. ...but, mostly a bit of delay, the rotary effect, reverb and that's it. crappy strings on a mexican strat it's crucial to make an interesting groove that is nice to play over and also has room to build. takes some work, I have good days and bad days...i had twins so there was a good 4 solid years of 'loop if they sleep' and not much gigging.
i strongly agree though, the loop game needs to be strong or it can go south quickly.
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Originally Posted by basscadet
Thanks.
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Looping is a culture at this point. You generally have about 1 minute to get all you ideas together. Ed Sheeran comes from that. Kimbra and Kawehi Wight are doing some amazing things with looping.
Looping is looping. Doesn't matter if you're playing guitar or beat-boxing.
I have a lot of drum tracks I did the right way. They're loops. Seems like people in R&B haven't learned anything in the last 30 years. The show revolves around the drummer.
My drummer lives in my laptop and cell phone.
My drummer is probably better than your drummer.
In regards to technology- if you don't so it someone else will. We may never get out of the downsizing Reagan era in US music.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I had a good 3 hours of material - some jazz standards, original tunes, and a bit of improvisation. One night, a drunk patron stumbles up and shouts that he wants to hear me play and sing Sinatra. I didn't have any prepared, and told him so. He heads over to the jukebox (which had been unplugged for my dinner gig), plugs it back in and starts playing Sinatra.
He must have spent a lot of money at that bar, because I lost the gig that week to a DJ.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
(Wendy, Paul Desmond, my variation from 2014, Practical Standards thread...)
VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: VladanMovies @ Smederevo Fortress/ Cover of Wendy by Paul Desmond
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
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Originally Posted by Vladan
That is what I like about this forum. Everybody brings their own ideas, many of which can be adopted by someone else.
I actually just ran up the credit card a little and bought one of those EZMix 2 programs and a guitar interface. Now I can make some recordings like you guys. Only I really like having drums so I bought the EZdrummer 2.
Damn. That was a lot of money....
I hope the wife doesn't find out.....!
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