What is your opinion on busking?

[drbhrb]

" Bands/musicians that engage an audience and make the venue money don't have an issue finding work that pays." D


Hi, D,
I agree that audience engagement is a plus but how then should we judge Segovia, Brendel, or Rubenstein by that standard? So, it's really the pay that's the issue. Back in the late 60's we got $40-50. per man up to 4 musicians for 3 sets/non-union) . Today, my son-in-law's last Rock gig in 2020 paid $40. per man. They engage the audience and were paid. How about 50 plus years of inflation? However, our erstwhile plumber makes $130.00 per hour and he doesn't have to engage anyone other than your throne.
Play live . . . Marinero

Fair points, but I really see the crux of the issue as people agreeing to play at venues for such low pay. Someone playing on the street is doing so on their terms on is only being exploited (or not) by themselves.

[Marinero]

Fair points, but I really see the crux of the issue as people agreeing to play at venues for such low pay. Someone playing on the street is doing so on their terms on is only being exploited (or not) by themselves.

Hi, D.
Low pay vs No Pay . . . a qualified, yes. However, unless you can hook up with a Classical orchestral gig with a named symphony(and teach), music as a living is not worth the struggle for most. National minimum wage is $14.00 per hour. So $14 X3=$42.00. I think many musicians would sadly accept $42.00 for a 3 hour gig. At least at Burger King you get benefits!!
Play live . . . Marinero
Burger King Employees Benefits 2020 (Burger King Benefits)

https://employeebenefit.info › burger-king-employee-b...

[AlsoRan]

Hi, D.
Low pay vs No Pay . . . a qualified, yes. However, unless you can hook up with a Classical orchestral gig with a named symphony(and teach), music as a living is not worth the struggle for most. National minimum wage is $14.00 per hour. So $14 X3=$42.00. I think many musicians would sadly accept $42.00 for a 3 hour gig. At least at Burger King you get benefits!!
Play live . . . Marinero
Burger King Employees Benefits 2020 (Burger King Benefits)

https://employeebenefit.info › burger-king-employee-b...

Alright, Marinero,

I am putting my portable amp and guitar away now, and getting a "real" job. Party pooper! I would have been the center of attention, playing the sweet music of my choice, at the tempo that I chose - but you ruined it......

[sgosnell]

These guys are busking. And they're among the top NYC musicians.

[steve burchfield]

How about depends on your options and attitude.

[entresz]

Mid-life crisis buskers who barely sing, wear a guitar as an accessory, and rely on complex backing tracks and inexplicable electronic gadgetry; a menace to society.

Plenty of these menacing characters get an alarming number of gigs where I am

[Litterick]

Plenty of these menacing characters get an alarming number of gigs where I am

I saw one recently at a farmers' market, resting his arms on his dreadnought, reading lyrics from an iPad, singing after a fashion, as the recorded music chugged along; the least active person in the town square.

[DaShigsta]

How about depends on your options and attitude.

Right... And done right you could be having fun and even making more money

than waiting for your Spotify pay out...

[StringNavigator]

...what I could not believe is that so few people took any notice... people behaved as if we weren't there...

Don't be too surprised about that. I don't mind that people are busking in commercial areas of town, but I personally steer clear of any begging, busking or street commotion. Times have changed and lolly-gagging about in public spaces greatly increases the risk factors for being attacked, robbed or arrested.

Even making eye contact can get one killed, as cities are very dangerous places, now.
Plan A: Look busy and keep walking with determination. Do only what is necessary.
Plan B: Carry something for self-defense. Move to safer parts of the country.

You've made it this far... guarantee what's left of your life.
The 4S Rule Keeps You Safe:
Where? Don't go to stupid places.
When? Don't go out at stupid times.
Who? Don't hang around with stupid people.
What? Don't do stupid things.

It's getting worse. I avoid retail, myself, because store owners/managers/guards can have you wrongly arrested and ruin your life.
Go to a concert and get blown up or stuck with an AIDS needle.
Or the venue is torched and fire escapes are locked.

Another retail trick for some people now is to spike refreshments with drugs and watch the "fun". Or spew bodily fluids into your meals.
You can even get knifed when leaving an event because some young people want to experience the "feel" of the knife as it enters your body.
Others want to put the boots to you because they don't like your looks, your hat, or they're trying to get initiated into a gang.

On first thought, one may think that I'm laying it on a bit thick, but everything mentioned above has been backed up by true stories. People have even been shot dead while playing a gig.

When I want music, I just pick up one of my instruments and play. I advise anyone to start their own musical journey rather than depend on others to make music for them. Same for watching sports. Stop it. Buy your own ball and kick it around.

And when buskers start bringing out young children, many adult men get as far away from there as possible, before ending up on World Star, staring at a child while some nasty captions are floating beneath their mug. All so that some amateur Video-Maker can get more "LIKES".

[drbhrb]

Don't be too surprised about that. I don't mind that people are busking in commercial areas of town, but I personally steer clear of any begging, busking or street commotion. Times have changed and lolly-gagging about in public spaces greatly increases the risk factors for being attacked, robbed or arrested.

Even making eye contact can get one killed, as cities are very dangerous places, now.
Plan A: Look busy and keep walking with determination. Do only what is necessary.
Plan B: Carry something for self-defense. Move to safer parts of the country.

You've made it this far... guarantee what's left of your life.
The 4S Rule Keeps You Safe:
Where? Don't go to stupid places.
When? Don't go out at stupid times.
Who? Don't hang around with stupid people.
What? Don't do stupid things.

It's getting worse. I avoid retail, myself, because store owners/managers/guards can have you wrongly arrested and ruin your life.
Go to a concert and get blown up or stuck with an AIDS needle.
Or the venue is torched and fire escapes are locked.

Another retail trick for some people now is to spike refreshments with drugs and watch the "fun". Or spew bodily fluids into your meals.
You can even get knifed when leaving an event because some young people want to experience the "feel" of the knife as it enters your body.
Others want to put the boots to you because they don't like your looks, your hat, or they're trying to get initiated into a gang.

On first thought, one may think that I'm laying it on a bit thick, but everything mentioned above has been backed up by true stories. People have even been shot dead while playing a gig.

When I want music, I just pick up one of my instruments and play. I advise anyone to start their own musical journey rather than depend on others to make music for them. Same for watching sports. Stop it. Buy your own ball and kick it around.

And when buskers start bringing out young children, many adult men get as far away from there as possible, before ending up on World Star, staring at a child while some nasty captions are floating beneath their mug. All so that some amateur Video-Maker can get more "LIKES".

Well this is some unfounded fear mongering if you are talking about the US

Pew Research:

"Using the FBI data, the violent crime rate fell 49% between 1993 and 2019, with large decreases in the rates of robbery (-68%), murder/non-negligent manslaughter (-47%) and aggravated assault (-43%). (It’s not possible to calculate the change in the rape rate during this period because the FBI revised its definition of the offense in 2013.) Meanwhile, the property crime rate fell 55%, with big declines in the rates of burglary (-69%), motor vehicle theft (-64%) and larceny/theft (-49%).

Using the BJS statistics, the declines in the violent and property crime rates are even steeper than those reported by the FBI. Per BJS, the overall violent crime rate fell 74% between 1993 and 2019, while the property crime rate fell 71%."


Times indeed have changed, for the better.

[Saxophone Tall]

I'm reading these comments with hilarity. I busk. And I make more money per busk than I would in a club. My chops are on fire, women twerk at my feet, "name" musicians introduce themselves to me and compliment my playing (and occasionally ask for a card).

Cops equate buskers with beggars. The original musician was a busker (troubadour).

You don't know what you're missing.

[Littlemark]

I'm reading these comments with hilarity. I busk. And I make more money per busk than I would in a club. My chops are on fire, women twerk at my feet, "name" musicians introduce themselves to me and compliment my playing (and occasionally ask for a card).

Cops equate buskers with beggars. The original musician was a busker (troubadour).

You don't know what you're missing.

I think you mean jongleurs or minstrels. Troubadours were mostly from educated upper classes and did not travel. And certainly didn't play in the streets. We have records of their poetry and music because they were able to write them down.

Jongleurs and minstrels performed other people's work, and were entertainers. You can see how juggler was derived from jongleur.

Carry on.

[StringNavigator]

Well this is some unfounded fear mongering if you are talking about the US

Pew Research:

"Using the FBI data, the violent crime rate fell 49% between 1993 and 2019, with large decreases in the rates of robbery (-68%), murder/non-negligent manslaughter (-47%) and aggravated assault (-43%). (It’s not possible to calculate the change in the rape rate during this period because the FBI revised its definition of the offense in 2013.) Meanwhile, the property crime rate fell 55%, with big declines in the rates of burglary (-69%), motor vehicle theft (-64%) and larceny/theft (-49%).

Using the BJS statistics, the declines in the violent and property crime rates are even steeper than those reported by the FBI. Per BJS, the overall violent crime rate fell 74% between 1993 and 2019, while the property crime rate fell 71%."

Times indeed have changed, for the better.

While you're enjoying your "better times", consider this...

You really haven't thought this through and you haven't realised yet what most of us know: Statistics Lie! Not in facts, but in how the facts are depicted.

Firstly, you're depicting reported crime, which is only the tip of the iceberg, as most crime goes unreported. Also, many US cities no longer report or respond to crimes under $5000... Did you consider that? These may be "better times" because crime is not reported...

But then you've made the CNN mistake of quoting "rates", rather than the total actual crimes. Once you quote a "rate", you have left reality behind.

Now, let's examine three of your graphs in "real" terms:

FBI Violence
The FBI graph depicts the US violent crime rate per 100k.
The US population is 330M, so you must multiply by a factor of 330M/100k or 3300x: 3300 x 379.4 = 1,252,020
So, in 2019, 1.3M people were reported to be violently attacked or MURDERED!.
Over one million victims violently attacked is a nightmare. Especially when you consider that most occur in cities which are small in area compared to the continental US.

BJS Violence
The Bureau of Justice graph depicts the US violent crime rate (12yrs+) per 1k.
The US population is 330M, so you must multiply by a factor of 330M/1k or 330,000x: 330,000 x 21 = 6,930,000
So, in 2019, 6.9M people were violently attacked or MURDERED!. The number includes unreported crime. ?? Is this number just a bureaucrats' estimate?
Seven million victims violently attacked is a nightmare. Especially when you consider that most occur in cities which are small in area compared to the continental US.

FBI Theft
The FBI graph depicts the US property crime rate per 100k.
The US population is 330M, so you must multiply by a factor of 330M/100k or 330,000x: 330,000 x 2109.9 = 696,267,000
So, in 2019, 696M people were robbed.
696 million victims of robbery is a nightmare. Especially when you consider that most occur in cities which are small in area compared to the continental US.

Unfounded fear mongering??
Tell that to the 7M attacked or murdered and the 696M robbed...
And that's only FBI & BJS reporting. What about the rest of the country? State and Local police...? Scams? Confidence Tricksters? Paedophile Abductions? Missing People?

You're the King of the Icebergs, and I publicly negate your post as it does not reflect the real situations on city streets. Why would you argue that crowded situations in the city are safe, anyway? What good are you achieving?

Keep your children in school and at home and always under watchful eye. Children buskers are exploited for money. This is not Communist China. Not yet, anyway. Not everyone wants to see children in the streets begging for money.

You've made it this far... guarantee what's left of your life.
The 4S Rule Keeps Your Children Safe:
Where? Don't take your children to stupid places.
When? Don't take your children out at stupid times.
Who? Don't take your children out around stupid people.
What? Don't let your children do stupid things.

[Alder Statesman]

P

You haven't thought this through and you haven't realised that statistics lie, not in facts, but in how the facts are depicted.


Firstly, you're depicting reported crime, which is only the tip of the iceberg, as most crime goes unreported. Also, many US cities no longer report or respond to crimes under $5000... Did you consider that?


But then you've made the CNN mistake of quoting "rates", rather than the total actual crimes. Once you quote a "rate", you have left reality behind.

Let's examine three of your graphs:


FBI Violence
The FBI graph depicts the US violent crime rate per 100k.
The US population is 330M, so you must multiply by a factor of 330M/100k or 3300x: 3300 x 379.4 = 1,252,020
So, in 2019, 1.3M people were reported to be violently attacked or MURDERED!.
Over one million victims violently attacked is a nightmare. Especially when you consider that most occur in cities which are small in area compared to the continental US.


BJS Violence
The Bureau of Justice graph depicts the US violent crime rate (12yrs+) per 1k.
The US population is 330M, so you must multiply by a factor of 330M/1k or 330,000x: 330,000 x 21 = 6,930,000
So, in 2019, 6.9M people were violently attacked or MURDERED!. The number includes unreported crime. ?? Is this number just a bureaucrats' estimate?
Seven million victims violently attacked is a nightmare. Especially when you consider that most occur in cities which are small in area compared to the continental US.


FBI Theft
The FBI graph depicts the US property crime rate per 100k.
The US population is 330M, so you must multiply by a factor of 330M/100k or 330,000x: 330,000 x 2109.9 = 696,267,000
So, in 2019, 696M people were robbed.
696 million victims of robbery is a nightmare. Especially when you consider that most occur in cities r post, better bring your chops. which are small in area compared to the continental US.


Unfounded fear mongering?? Tell that to the 7M attacked or murdered and the 696M robbed...

A couple years ago a hoodlum thought he would rob one of our prominent buskers. Bad idea. The buskers, while competitive against each other, are a tight knit group. It was like that scene in the remake of Ocean’s Eleven where Pitt and Clooney recap how no one gets away with robbing a casino.

There has not been an attempt since. Like I said in my earlier post, better bring your chops. All of them.

[StringNavigator]

I'm reading these comments with hilarity. I busk. And I make more money per busk than I would in a club. My chops are on fire, women twerk at my feet, "name" musicians introduce themselves to me and compliment my playing (and occasionally ask for a card)...You don't know what you're missing.

Yes, but you don't drag your children out onto the streets to busk. That's what my post is against.
Your safety is your business. But a child has to depend upon their parents judgement.
I think anyone who drags children out into the streets to busk is lacking in judgement.

[StringNavigator]

A couple years ago a hoodlum thought he would rob one of our prominent buskers. Bad idea. There has not been an attempt since.

How could you know that it hasn't?

Buskers robbed in ByWard Market | CTV News

Notice how the buskers want your money. Now that they are being robbed, they want more police. This will cost you money in taxes. So, you pay twice, so they can busk!

[Average Joe]

I loathe buskers, most provide little other than noise pollution of public spaces.

there are very good musicians out there busking, but they are few and far between. Much more common are endless pan pipe renditions of El Condor Pasa or folk-mauled Hallelujahs

[Saxophone Tall]

I think you mean jongleurs or minstrels. Troubadours were mostly from educated upper classes and did not travel. And certainly didn't play in the streets. We have records of their poetry and music because they were able to write them down.

Jongleurs and minstrels performed other people's work, and were entertainers. You can see how juggler was derived from jongleur.

Carry on.

That's a new word for me (Jongleur)! I'm using Troubadour in the loose meaning. Apparently, the tunes were of chivalry or courtly love, were vulgar, etc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour

[Littlemark]

Opps I made some errors let me fix them. That is not how to read statistics. I'm glad you understand how to use multiplication. Very useful skill. However 7, million people were not attacked or murdered, or robbed. Using some statistician's estimate, there were 7 million crimes. There might have been one instance of someone getting their purse stolen. If a knife was used to cut them and then they ran away and pushed someone over who was in the way. That is only one event, but 3 crimes which included 2 people. Multiple crimes can occur at once. 3 crimes but only two victims.

More importantly, I doubt those graphs take into account people who were victimized multiple times in a year. Of the 14 million occurrences, there might only be 10 million unique victims. Some of them being petty crimes like a bike stolen from your yard. Or a fight in a high-school yard.

Moreover, the statistician took into account unreported crimes. They likely took into account the opposite. Imaginary crimes can be reported.

The crime RATE is important. The actual number of crimes is not important. If the population increases(like it did from 93' to 19') logic dictates the amount of incidents will increase. If the proportion of incidents decreases that is good news.
I'm not sure why I'm even writing this. Most of you are not stupid and know this without me saying it. Sorry.

[StringNavigator]

The 12 Golden Rules Of Busking - PowerOn | Roland UK

Read the link, THE 12 GOLDEN RULES OF BUSKING. It makes for a good read as it pertains to this thread. Solid tips.

It's a free country. Do what you want.
But it's NO PLACE for children.

A. ...busking...can present some pretty serious challenges...sunburn...fines...abuse...arrest...
B. ...UK’s minimum age for busking is 14, but every town has its own web of rules and byelaws...
C. ...You’ll want somewhere to keep your bag and equipment where it won’t get nicked...
D. (prepared to fight?) ...don’t let the veterans intimidate you: no performer owns the street...
E. Most buskers...slipping in a handful of their own money so punters recognise that tipping is welcome...Every few songs, take out some...to stop a passing toerag stealing the loot...
F. ...You’ll get drunks, nutters, thieves, pensioners informing you that you suck and hoodies gobbing in your case...If you get heckled, laugh it off. If you get robbed, don’t chase them. Dealing with borderline psychopaths is an invaluable lesson...
G. ...Busking can teach you everything you need to know about live performance...which songs spark a singalong and which ones get you punched...

[Littlemark]

I know how you are using it, I'm suggesting you mean to use the word minstrel instead. Because a troubadour is not at all what you are thinking. It's closer to Romeo singing a song to Juliet than a busker.

[StringNavigator]

That is not how to read statistics. I'm glad you understand how to use multiplication. Very useful skill. However 7, million people were not attacked or murdered, nor 7 million robbed. There were 14 million reported crimes. There might have been one instance of someone getting their purse stolen. If a knife was used to cut them and then they ran away and pushed someone over who was in the way. That is only one event, but 3 crimes which included 2 people. Multiple crimes can occur at once. 3 crimes but only two victims.

More importantly, I doubt those graphs take into account people who were victimized multiple times in a year. Of the 14 million occurrences, there might only be 10 million unique victims. Some of them being petty crimes like a bike stolen from your yard. Or a fight in a high-school yard.

Moreover, these are reported crimes. As you corrected started many crimes are not reported. The opposite is also true. Imaginary crimes can be reported. That being said you can likely ignore both because it is likely that the RATIO of crimes undereported or falsely reported remained similar.

The crime RATE is important. The actual number of crimes is not important. If the population increases(like it did from 93' to 19') logic dictates the amount of incidents will increase. If the proportion of incidents decreases that is good news.
I'm not sure why I'm even writing this. Most of you are not stupid and know this without me saying it. Sorry.

Not sure why? That's a sign of caution if there ever was one.
I think thou protesteth too much about too little.
Often one is compelled by a daemon. Just ask the drive-by shooters and mass shooters.

It just ain't safe out there for kids.
Here's some more math fun for you statistical types...
Hours x Crowds x Experience x City = Exposure to Danger

My kids had the chance to grow up safely because I actually was a parent. I followed the 4S Rule. Not the Statistical Rule. And I have no regrets.

[Alder Statesman]

How could you know that it hasn't?

Buskers robbed in ByWard Market | CTV News

Notice how the buskers want your money. Now that they are being robbed, they want more police. This will cost you money in taxes. So, you pay twice, so they can busk!

I talk with the regulars. I am out there with them.

In Asheville, busking is a key part of our downtown and River Arts District. It is not a cycle of more cops for more buskers that is going increase taxes. Buskers take care of themselves.

[StringNavigator]

I talk with the regulars. I am out there with them.

In Asheville, busking is a key part of our downtown and River Arts District. It is not a cycle of more cops for more buskers that is going increase taxes. Buskers take care of themselves.

Asheville may be a real nice place.
In fact, I think Nashville's real name is probably "Not As Good As Asheville".
But Asheville is not the world, Alder.
Buskers attacked and robbed...? You bet. Just Google it.

But children should not be exposed to what your busker friends have to take care from. No Place for kids. I can handle psychopaths. I'm ex-military. But why argue to take childrens away from there mama and place them in the streets to beg for money? Don't make no sense.

Hell, one day I, myself, may find a perch on some corner just for the heck of it without a hat and strum some southern style Lazy River with swinging licks or just drag out the ol' bass and walk everyone home. Or, if I really get mad, I may arm myself with my ol' Leedy banjo and chase everyone away! Maybe I'll scare 'em just by showin' up!

[Littlemark]

For fun:
Population is the USA IN 93' 260M.

260M/1K x 79.8 = 20,748,000 violent crimes. More then double from 19'. I mean that's a huge improvement. Even if the population hadn't increased by 70M. That's like two Canadas moving to The USA.
Wait that might explain the drop in crime!!
I'm glad we've solved something here. Lol