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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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07-24-2012 10:32 AM
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Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.
To understand be bop you have to understand the historical context in which it was born. You can play and dig bop without knowing this, but you won't REALLY understand the music. If you're going back and checking out Bird and early Monk and Bud Powell and Dizzy, you will come to this understanding by just listening and reading some liner notes. Especially if you know anything about WWII and post war America.
Of course a jewish born russian musician during USSR days would understand. You don't have to be black to understand. I never said you had to be and never implied this.
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quote=henryrobinett;243435Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.
To understand be bop you have to understand the historical context in which it was born. You can play and dig bop without knowing this, but you won't REALLY understand the music.
That's almost as funny as the line that Wesley Snipes delivers to Woody Harrilsen in "White Men Can't Jump" . . . "You might be listening to Jimi . . but, you're not hearing him. Listening to him and hearing him are two different things".
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
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quote=henryrobinett;243435
Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.
I'm at a loss. Because, other than his technical mastery, beautiful, melodic well placed lines, wonderful use of intervalic phrasing, and being an absolute master of harmonic blowing in B flat . . . . I too can't hear a damn thing. The man was a master. But, I don't think he was trying to do anything except make great bop jazz music. But, now you have me wondering if I actually have the necessary qualifications to truly understand what bop is. I'm wondering whom else I might not be hearing or understanding.
Apologies for the tone of sarcasm in the above content. I really don't wish to pick a quarrel with you. I'm just wondering what exactly is at the root of some of your posts.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
A question could easily be asked of jazz, or bebop, essentially what direction would jazz have taken were it not for the anger of black oppression.
What I'm referring to is the identical anger and social movement that shaped the music of the 60's. Cultural separation is experienced and documented in artistry. Beethoven's 'Wellington's Victory' is another such historical example of an artist creating, or telling, a musical story in response to the realities of the day.
An honest examination of black life in the 30's-40's will reveal black professional players by and large did not experience the same professional freedoms and playing options as their non black counterparts.
To remove that racial component of jazz from the players in those times would be impossible, for that's the reality of what they lived.
Personally, I believe one could honestly draw a line between that anger and the creation of 'bop. Read Gillespie's '2BORNOT2BOP' (actually titled 'to be or not to bop', aka another in a long line of Diz' Shakeperisms) for starters, to gain insights on one bop creators perspective.
Having met Pop's (Diz) personally in a '91 visit to a Seattle Goddaughter, a coworker of mine, and shared bread with him, had I to do it over again I'd have posed many pertinent questions of him. But when one is first in the presence of greatness, they've no such agenda for they're lost in the humility of the moment for having the privilege of being there in that moment.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 07-24-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
But, if you're tying the explosion a jazz, places like Bop City to the end of WWII. Then, I see it as more of a coincidental time period than as a result of the war ending. There was a real shift in what people did and where thay lived during that time. But, that shift probably would have occured either way.
Favorite Jazz guitarist book
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