View Poll Results: Do you play as a job or as a hobby?
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I've played a lot of restaurant gigs during the last couple of years and in a general sense they are easy and have some definite benefits:
Originally Posted by Sandor
1) You can usually play any style of music (yes, even jazz) as long as it is not loud and obnoxious. People usually want to be able to talk over the music.
2) The pay is pretty regular although in my small town it only runs $40-$55 per night for a 2 to 3 hr gig with a 15 min break and usually a free meal.
3) The music exposure can often lead to other gigs like weddings and private parties.
4) Trios, Duos and an occasional Quartet are the most common sizes for local restaurants and that reflects what the owners are willing to pay.
5) The best part of this job is the confidence, experience & abilities, ie...musical benefits gained from playing music for the public on a regular basis.
wizLast edited by wizard3739; 02-07-2012 at 11:03 PM.
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02-07-2012 10:54 PM
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I think that "Professional" or "Hobbyist" - which are you? leaves some players out - it gives them no category - no pigeon hole.
My dictionary calls a "hobby" a sideline, a pastime, and a spare-time activity. And it seems we've defined "pro" as a player who earns a living by playing.
There's another kind of player, to which JonnyPac alluded. There's the passionate, eternal student and practitioner of the art. I'd say this category would include many, many of us. It's certainly more than a "hobby" - calling it this puts it on a level with stamp collecting, seems to me (nothing necessarily wrong with stamp collecting - be passionate about that, too!)
And we all know players of amazing talent, who never perform, for whatever reasons. Playing guitar, for me, is much more than a pastime; yet I've never felt any desire to perform. There are many like me: where do we fit? Passionate student of the art? If you don't aspire to perform, yet you go to sleep thinking about guitar, and you wake up thinking about it - and you even dream about it - mustn't there be a category for you other than "hobbyist?"
kj
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
A couple of thoughts and opinions on your post kojo. Regarding Jonnypac, he's being much too modest, in my estimation. Based upon his post, I would have no problem at all considering him a true pro. He indicated that he is still learning and still educating himself. Who among us aren't? He also has the honor and privilege of adding educator to the title of professional musician.
Regarding the last paragraph of your post and most specifically the question you pose . . . to me it doesn't matter if you play guitar like Tommy Emmanuel, Julian Bream or George Benson, or if you go to sleep and wake up thinking about guitar (as I do virtually every night) . . if you aren't performing and at least sometimes receiving compensation for it and have no desire to perform, you are a hobbiest. If you really need another catagory for people who are as passionate as you seem to be, consider "serious hobbiest musician".
In an earlier post on this thread I enumerated several attributes that I believe to be essential for one to be considered a true pro, as opposed to just being a hack who gets paid to play guitar. One can have each of these attributes and more, but still be a hobbiest. Being a musician, is very different than being a professional musician. As stated here earlier by others, there are many hobbiest musicians that are far more learned, skilled and talented than some professional musicians. If they aren't performing at some level, and at least occasionally realizing some form of compensation for those performances . . . they are hobbiest musicians . . in my opinion. There are also retired professional musicians. Think Johnny Smith. Where do we pidgeon hole him? Other than royalties, he's not earning as a guitar player. He stopped gigging for money decades ago.
Another thought about those who might be degreed educators in the feild of music, but who never perform in a public arena. I do not consider them to be professional musicians either. I consider them to be musicians, for sure. But, educators rather than professional musicians. Being capable of performing at a professional level, does not necessarilly constitute being a pro.
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I don't have a problem with the word or definition. Originally Posted by Kojo27
A lot of folks are passionate about their hobby. Car collectors, horse owners, golfers etc.
Same with armature. I think you can be proud to be classified an amateur.
"Latin source, amtor, "lover, devoted friend, devotee, enthusiastic pursuer of an objective," and from its Latin-derived French source, amateur, with a similar range of meanings." Amateur: Lover of...
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I am most definitely a hobbiest with no desire to play professionally given the economics of jazz. There is an old joke:
How does a jazz musician make a million dollars? He starts out with 2 million.
And that was from back in the day when jazz was the popular music of the time.
I have a great deal of respect for those that have the passion and drive to make a go fo it as a professional jazz musician, though. I read where Eric Dolphy used to keep a big bag of dried beans in his closet so that he would be able to eat. He would rather eat beans and play his style of music than play something commercial and popular and make money. Ya gotta respect that!
I also have a great deal of respect for those on this forum that make any kind of living in music, be it teaching, gigging, working in a music store, etc.
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And I see now that one might infer, from my first post here, that I was including Jonny in my self-created category of players. No! Jonny is very capable of speaking for himself in this regard - I was referring only to his allusion to that "eternal student" type.JonnyPac said: "I prefer to think of myself as a student of the endless process of creating meaningful music... There is always more... "
Sorry if I goofed, JP.
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If it wasn't for us hobbyists (and the dates we bring to the shows) the pros wouldn't have anyone to play for.
I spent 15 years trying to slug it out in the L.A. club scene (original rock/blues). I don't regret it but I am much happier now making a steady income elsewhere and enjoying music as my passion/art. Falling down the jazz rabbit hole was the best thing that could ever have happened to me as it has renewed my love of the guitar and will undoubtedly provide life long study and enjoyment.Last edited by Jazzpunk; 02-08-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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Used to play up to 25 nights a month up to the late 90s; all sorts of gigs. In a R&B house band up until about 2006. With kids, house, day job, etc...I keep my hand in, but it's on hold for a few more years.
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Lol. No hard feeling here, guys.
I love what I do- and I am very devoted to music in my life. Pro or not, I strum more strings every week than I pound nails or flip burgers!
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Patrick: the English language (like most languages, I think) evolves, in almost every respect. Languages tend to expand; they seldom contract. Dictionaries don’t determine a language; instead, it is the other way around. A good dictionary reflects the language as it is spoken by those who speak it. For American English, I think most linguists agree that The American Heritage Dictionary is the best. Nonetheless, if you want to use another, that is fine with me. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Assuming that The American Heritage is okay with you as a document of spoken word meanings in America, we can look there and find that the word “professional” has more than one meaning. This is according to the hundreds of millions of people who speak American English.
Again, the language evolves. But it evolves slowly. One person – whether a Heritage representative or a United States President – cannot, by merely deeming it so in an Internet forum, and by tagging it with “IMO,” change the meaning of the words that are the backbone and guts of the language itself.
The American Heritage Dictionary on “Professional”:
ADJECTIVE:
1. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
2. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
3. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
4. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
5. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
NOUN:
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
Now, Patrick, imagine for a moment that your exemplary guitar players -- Tommy Emmanuel; Julian Bream; and George Benson -- for whatever reason (the reason is irrelevant for the moment) got together and decided they were sick of performing, sick of the business – and what’s more that any further money from record sales, etc., would be forfeited.
This is philosophy, Patrick - s search for the truth, which often involves hypothetical situations - so please don't ruin it by saying something like, "Oh, they'd never do that."
By your proposed definition of "hobbyist," (and by no one else's) aren't Tommy, Julian, and George now only “hobbyists?”
Isn’t each a “skilled practitioner; an expert”? (noun – #3 of "Professional")
Doesn’t each “have or show great skill”? (Adjective – #5 of "Professional")
People who earn money or a livelihood can obviously be “professionals” in their fields, too – but in our language, Patrick, an expert guitarist, or one showing great skill, need not be undeserving of the term, just because money isn’t part of the picture.
And as much as you would like the language to accommodate your desire to be right in this discussion, it simply doesn’t.
Now, as for your proposed label for people whose very lives revolve around playing guitar, or pursuing some other art I suppose -- the label "serious hobbiest (sic) musician" -- jeez, how awkward can it get? "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm a serious hobbyist musician."
Are you serious? Evan as an answer to, "Do you have any hobbies?" This: "Yeah, I'm a serious hobbyist..." Come on.
I often answer that question like this: "Are you asking me how I pay bills, or what I actually do most of the time?" And I wait until the person specifies. I'm polite about it and I smile a lot, and nobody has ever seemed to take offense -- but it starts some interesting conversations.
Labels and "pigeon holes" are bad things, imo. They let people easily and quickly file other people away in neat little categories, rather than recognizing others' uniqueness and interest. It's another symptom of an assembly-line society. "Whaddayado - NEXT!!!"Last edited by Kojo27; 02-09-2012 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Ending was missing
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I am:
A pro teacher
An aspiring-to-be pro jazz player who has, up to this point, spent much more time practicing than networking and schmoozing, or even jamming with people.
I don't gig as often as I'd like (that is something I am actively trying to change), but when I do play out it is definitely with pro "level" players. Whether I'm keeping up with them to their satisfaction I'm not sure, but I get the calls every now and again!
So I'm a full time musician but not a full time player - more like part time teacher, part time practicer, and wee bit part time gigger. My thing with gigs these days is that I only take the gigs that seem interesting to me...no more rock or folk gigs, for the most part.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00190-0073.pdf
Of course, he must be writing in Canadian English (huge amounts of ) but he's quoting the OED, so that's alright then........
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A bit hung up on semantics in this thread I think.
The OP did use the word 'career' in the actual poll.
There are many occupations that are not generally considered a 'profession' were you could easily make more than 50k a year. A house painter, a framer, an accounting clerk etc.
I think if you aren't pulling in 40k a year or more from performing music, you may be a great musician, but to me it is a stretch to consider that a viable career. And imo, I wouldn't consider you a professional performing musician.
A 'Professional' that can't put away savings to buy a house, or save for retirement, or pay for health care. That makes no sense to me and some may consider that irresponsible.
And if you can't agree with that, how about using the poverty level as the threshold, certainly if you can't get yourself more than the poverty level performing music, then you can't consider that a career or yourself a professional.
Code:The 2011 Poverty Guidelines for the 48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia Persons in family Poverty guideline 1 $10,890 2 14,710 3 18,530 4 22,350 5 26,170 6 29,990 7 33,810 8 37,630 For families with more than 8 persons, add $3,820 for each additional person.
Last edited by fep; 02-09-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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So I'm a pro guitarist even though I don't make any money as a musician or gig much? Sweet, can't wait to add this to my resume!
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One phenomenon I've noticed in the UK is that people with formal music qualifications who teach (say) piano or trombone, and top up their income playing shows or in bands almost never describe themselves as professional musicians. Yet guitar players in similar situations very often do.
I find it strange, and frankly rather narcissistic, that many guitarists claim "pro musician" status on flimsier grounds than people playing other instruments.
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I don't know that I would feel comfortable judging one's level of professionalism by their amount of income. There can always be extenuating circumstances affecting someone's levels of income. Do we start to say . . . "Ok . . . if you earn at least $80,000 per year gigging you're a pro. But, if you earn less you're not". Who gets to set the criteria and the thresholds? As you stated in the beginning of your post, there are semantics and subjectivity abound in all of these posts. However, I see only 2 truths as it relates to the term professional; Truth number 1; if someone is getting paid/compensated for performing music, they are either a full time professional or a part time (some time) professional. Truth number 2; there are people who are capable of performing at a professional level as it relates to skills, talents and disciplines . . . but are not earning as a result of their performances, thereby they perform as hobbyists. Originally Posted by fep
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I am hobbyist. The guitarist I know that make a living at it are really pro's in the sense that they can play most anything at a gig as needed. One guy is a great jazz enthusiast but he makes most of his money playing country & alt-country, plus the usual assorted wedding gigs where all sorts of pop gets called. He can play most any tune from memory, amazing. And of course he does private lessons plus has a day job.
I work a corporate gig, the money is good, nice vacations & all that, but its not that special, but playing music always is.
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I have a full time music teaching gig at a private school pk3-8th grade I teach music to all grade levels, beginning band and middle school band. I own a private lessons studio where I maintain a roster of 30 private students. I play fusion every wednesday night, and I play trad jazz brunch every saturday and sunday( a six hour gig each day) In addition I pick up around four or five private functions a month. I have released three of my own cd's and have been a sideman on several others. I'm married no kids (we are in our 40's). I practice at least two hours a day. I have so much more to learn I wish I had at least two more life times. I don't network, I make friends,I don't promote I tell people what I'm up to. I am a lifelong student and lover of the guitar. I just want to improve.
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Go, Eddy, go. I wish I had two (or four!) more lifetimes, too. Getting better is what it's ALL about for me, too. Originally Posted by eddy b.
Shun labels, for they only tear you down.
kj
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Thanks Kojo, I wanted to add along the way my other day jobs have been, bike messenger, furniture delivery guy, furniture salesman, waiter, grocery guy, cell phone salesman, grass cutter...and anytime anyone would ask me what I do I'd say I'm a musician. I believe most of the top tier pros would say hard work and being in the right place at the right time have put them where they are. Keep on keepin' on my jazz brothers..
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Right on Eddy. Originally Posted by eddy b.
I'm sure you've got good or great musical skills. And it looks like you're a real hard worker, organized, and a good business man.
I'm thinking, that's probably what it takes for many to make a good career out of music... (unless you get a gig with something like the Letterman band, or you're a 1st call studio guy in one of those cities, or you rise to the celebrity status. Not many of those kind of jobs to be had)
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How do you reply to folks who ask you, "What do you do?"
Do you say, "I'm a 'butcher' (or 'baker' or 'candlestick maker')."? (or, perhaps, "pediatric dentist" LOL!)
Or, given some of our ages, "a 'retired' butcher, or ....."?
Or do you reply, "I'm a jazz guitarist."?
I know this, most people at a restaurant gig look at you the way most people look at concert performers. They see a "professional". And for those coupla hours, you are exactly that. When you get home you're a spouse, a father, or just another old fart cussin' the gummint again.
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Hobbiest
My $$ is made outside of music
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My advice to a younger person who wants a career in music is not easy. Go get a B.A. degree in Music from an accredited university. It doesn't have to be a big name school, but it ought to be a real university. (No, I'm not going to define what a real university is, but here in Taxifornia, I'm talking about a Cal State campus or better, ok?) If you're a real hotshot, try to get into North Texas State, Indiana, Julliard, or Eastman, for example!
I'm just a hobbyist or amateur. I do it for the simple love of the instrument and jazz material. My favorite situation is playing in a "pick up" or rehearsal small combo. That's when you have your "ears on" and there's max interaction, or should be. Currently I don't have that kind of situation available but I'm keeping my eyes open for opportunities. In fact I have a keyboard guy lined up who is interested in jamming. Jamming with a piano is fun but a real challenge, with two chordal instruments, and a lot of piano players are used to pounding away with no "interference", leaving the guitarist no space to work in. But I digress.......
I've been a jazz fan since high school, and finally got to the point where listening wasn't enough. I took a lot of guitar lessons starting in mid-life, and set out to learn sight reading from the beginning, which I did (that meant I had to dump a couple of teachers----you know----they taught "strums" and folk singing...nothing against that but it wasn't my goal).
Right now my reading chops are rusty but I like sitting down and working on reading, and will be getting back to it real soon. I held down a competitive guitar chair in a modern big band, which functioned as a night class (and also performed here and there) at a local junior college, for twelve years. Each fall, every chair was open for competition. 95% or more of the guitar players who showed up on the first night each fall couldn't read squat.
For the first couple of nights, the leader would rotate hopeful people to sit in the various positions in all the sections, pass out another chart, and count it down. After that, he arbitrarily chose one regular player and one substitute for each chair (except that he had awesome returning lead players in each horn section). I'm not bragging, but just trying to illustrate in my own insignificant way how learning to read, it seems to me, would be a fundamental skill set for any aspiring pro since it is so competitive out there, and is also crucial to understanding all the theory that goes into jazz....just my opinion.
Anyway, my strong advice to a young person is: do NOT short-change the education! It's a lot of work and time, but get a B.A. degree in music and take it from there. (Better yet, get a double major with something else that'll give you a backup day job. Heck, you could go on and get an M.A. and then teach at a junior college.)
Don't say you can't afford college. If you say that, you don't want it bad enough. Work your way through if you have to. Also, remember that rock is the dominant genre in the real world (along with C&W, and maybe worship?), so making money with jazz is always going to be difficult.
I'm so glad there are a few young people around who want to continue and preserve jazz!Last edited by Section Player; 03-02-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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+1 on one of the better posts I've read on this thread. But, then again, this is only section player's 19th post. Give him some time . .. he'll get just as goofy as the rest of us Originally Posted by Section Player
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