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  1. #1

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    A real disconnect. Jazz guitarists tend to get paid less than many other genres. Yet jazz guitars..... I'm talking about the big hollow body styles, are the most expensive.

    Gibson jazz boxes are crazy expensive. And in my town, Los Angeles. The jazzers get paid shit.

    Who is the highest paid living jazz guitarist?

    Scofield? He's an Ibanez endorsee. Gets his guitars for free.... right?
    Metheny? Ibanez again.
    Benson? Ibanez.
    Martino? Gibson endorsee... but Gibson's Martino model is discontinued.
    Stern? Yamaha.

    Tons of lesser known guitarists out there..... not rich! Not even close.

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  3. #2

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    So you think that the higher end models are actually made for & purchased by working musicians?

  4. #3

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    One of my favorite locals bragged about getting this awesome guitar for $500 bucks at a shop. Turns out it was the same Joe Pass Emperor model that I purchased one of earlier that year.

    Most good guitarists/musicians that I know spend more time on the music than they do money on the instrument.

    ~DB
    God is great, beer is good, people are crazy.

  5. #4

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    I don't mind the overblown pricing of Gibsons because I have no plans to buy one. I'm one of those people who believes the music is in your head and your hands, not your axe.

    In the meantime, if pitching top-end models at the people who can afford them keeps people like Benedetto in business, then I don't have a problem with it.

    I recently posted a piece from my local paper on another guitar site. It was about teachers receiving kickbacks from music stores. It referred to violin students at High School level paying $10K for fiddles and tertiary students paying $20K. I think guitarists get off cheap when you consider the quality and price of mid-range Ibanezes, for example.

  6. #5

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    Yeah, I think we've had a thread like this before where we looked at the relative prices of instruments...I mean, have you priced a baby grand piano lately?

    My dad has a friend who's daughter plays bassoon in college. 2nd mortgage time! And students aren't making ANY money for their playing--they're paying to learn more!
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #6
    That's true. Pianos are really expensive. Bassoons? Low end models cost $8000? Whew! Gibsons are cheap compared to a bassoon.

    So I shouldn't be complaining. Ibanez offerings are very reasonable. I own a couple of their Artcore jazz boxes that I am very pleased with.

    Benedetto guitars are only bought by stock brokers and lawyers who can't play...... oh well.

  8. #7

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    On TheGearPage, someone was showing off his Benedettos. I think he had six in one shot!
    Build bridges, not walls.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratocaster View Post

    Benedetto guitars are only bought by stock brokers and lawyers who can't play...... oh well.
    Or people who can REALLY play and they get their own model...I'm still waiting for the folks over at Benedetto to realize my genius. The call's coming, I know it.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stackabones View Post
    So you think that the higher end models are actually made for & purchased by working musicians?
    OK, so my daughter has Type 1 diabetes - the kind that requires her to check her blood and get multiple shots every day.

    One day I walked into a small guitar shop that is about a block away from Vanderbilt Medical Center. As I walked in the door I was on the phone with my wife talking about my daughter. All the guy at the counter heard as I walked in the door was, "What was her blood count? OK, give her 4 units of Ultralente and 6 units of Humalog and let me know what her counts are like in 2 hours."

    So he must have thought I was a doctor from the medical center. I hung up and he asked me what I was looking for. I peered behind the counter and saw an archtop that was going for around $5,000 (which was about $4,900 over my budget at the time). I pointed to it and said, "Can I check that one out?" He handed it to me, but then said, "I've got one in the back that you need to see" and he goes to the back room and brings out some $30,000 archtop. I can't recall what brand it was.

    Yep, I think alot of those high end archtops are purchased by guys with bucks who dink around on them in their spare time.
    Last edited by SwingSwangSwung; 03-04-2011 at 09:33 AM.
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  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratocaster View Post
    That's true. Pianos are really expensive. Bassoons? Low end models cost $8000? Whew! Gibsons are cheap compared to a bassoon.

    So I shouldn't be complaining. Ibanez offerings are very reasonable. I own a couple of their Artcore jazz boxes that I am very pleased with.

    Benedetto guitars are only bought by stock brokers and lawyers who can't play...... oh well.
    You know it. My AS73 cost $405 with the case and shipping from musicians friend. It's always sounded great. I just did a little tweaking on the intonation yesterday and it sounds even better now. I may add an Artcore that's a bit fatter at some point.

    I would say with a bassoon (or similar types of instruments) that since not as many people play them as compared to a guitar, the price would be more. The manufacturer has to be able to recoup the cost somehow; it's not like 800,000,000 teens are running around shouting "Mom! Buy me a BASSOON for my birthday!". Let's face it, to a large extent guitar is the official instrument of posers. I once asked a teacher what he thought it took to be a great guitarist and he said "Start out on the tuba." Meaning of course that you would enter the game already having actual musicianship instead of just wanting to look "cool".

    Pianos, by merit of size, hardware, craftsmanship are of course going to be expensive. However, you can get them for a decent price if you know where to look. I once helped a friend find a great old spinet for $600 from a guy who would buy pianos at auction and fix them up. Included in that was the moving cost.

    I'll buy an $8,000 guitar when someone finds me an $8,000 jazz gig. Or any gig that pays $8,000 for that matter.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  12. #11

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    Pianos are excellent value at the low to mid range. My mum had a beautiful baby grand - one of the Jap brands- for around $2-3K. Sure it was 20 years ago but I wouldn't have got an ES175 in OZ for less than $2K at the time.

    I still think guitars are cheap. I got 10 years out of a $90 pawn shop Strat copy and if I bothered putting a $50 set of tuners on it I'd get another 10 years out of it.

  13. #12

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    The instrument industry lives off hobbyists and people who spend more time GASing than playing. Plus big names get instruments free and have to sign agreements that they use them publicly. What to see what big names really play check out impromptu studio photos of them. Also work in a music store and see who the buys what. Pro don't change instruments a lot, they find instruments that feel right to them and live with it.

    Now Benedetto does have an Artists program and gives discounts for great players.

    But I always wanted a Gibson archtop and prices were too high. But I was patient and when on a tour doing audio I had to go to a little local music store. A great old ES-175 real cheap and I got it. Actually wasn't that fond of it and sold it a couple years later. I still wanted an archtop and couple years later I stumbled on a used GB20 cheap and still have that guitar. So keep your eyes open and you will find what you want at a price you can afford eventually. Till then focus on what you play not what your playing on.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by paynow View Post
    Let's face it, to a large extent guitar is the official instrument of posers.
    That has to be the best thing I have read on this board, ever.

    I'll build on your other comments by saying that the guitar market can't really be compared to any other musical instrument market (pianos and violins possibly being the only exceptions).

    When I was playing trombone more regularly I really wanted a bass trombone made by Edwards. At $4,800 it was about as much as I could reasonably spend on a functional trombone. I know of several professionals that play on instruments that range in price from $1,000 to $2,000. And they get payed to play in orchestras daily. Used trombones are generally 50% of their retail value. Vintage trombones are almost never worth more than a few hundred dollars with only a few exceptions for historical value. There's one "vintage" trombone on ebay right now listing for $2,000 (a 1934 Conn). I seriously doubt it would go for more than $500 when it eventually sells.

    You put a 1934 Gibson something-or-other and it is a different deal. Even in "rough" condition someone is going to pay out the but for it.

    Then you get to the people that actually play for pay with guitars and they are much more about quality over price. How many people here would gladly take a $500 Godin 5th Avenue out for a spin? That is the cheapest acoustic archtop currently on the market (that I've seen) and (IMHO) it sounds freakin' good! (P.S.: Someone buy me one!)

    ~DB
    God is great, beer is good, people are crazy.

  15. #14
    How about jazz amps? I have to be honest and say I'm not sure what amps the big name jazz guys are using.

    I've got some pricey amps I use when playing rock or country gigs. But jazz amps seem to be another story.

    For jazz gigs, I take a little early 80s Roland JC-55 I paid $200 for. Since its old, I take a back up amp along - a Line 6 amp that goes for $99. Try one of them out sometime - I forget the model number, but its their cheapest/smallest solid state amp. Plug your archtop in, turn off all the effects, and start twisting the EQ knobs (try Treble = 0, Mids = 10, Bass = 0, and start from there). I was really surprised at the tone I got out of that little Line6.

    Last night I played at a club in Nashville. I had 2 amps on stage - a Dr Z Stang Ray head and 2x12 cabinet, and my little Roland JC-55, both of which were mic'd. For the rock & blues stuff I played a Strat or Tele into a massive pedal board and then into the Dr. Z. For the jazz and MoTown stuff I played my archtop straight into the Roland. Overall, while by Dr Z/rock-blues tone was really good, I think my Jazz/Roland tone was better.
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  16. #15

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    This thread got me thinking about the great sax player Art Themen. Check out his Wikipedia entry ...

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by lindydanny View Post
    That has to be the best thing I have read on this board, ever.

    I'll build on your other comments by saying that the guitar market can't really be compared to any other musical instrument market (pianos and violins possibly being the only exceptions).

    When I was playing trombone more regularly I really wanted a bass trombone made by Edwards. At $4,800 it was about as much as I could reasonably spend on a functional trombone. I know of several professionals that play on instruments that range in price from $1,000 to $2,000. And they get payed to play in orchestras daily. Used trombones are generally 50% of their retail value. Vintage trombones are almost never worth more than a few hundred dollars with only a few exceptions for historical value. There's one "vintage" trombone on ebay right now listing for $2,000 (a 1934 Conn). I seriously doubt it would go for more than $500 when it eventually sells.

    You put a 1934 Gibson something-or-other and it is a different deal. Even in "rough" condition someone is going to pay out the but for it.

    Then you get to the people that actually play for pay with guitars and they are much more about quality over price. How many people here would gladly take a $500 Godin 5th Avenue out for a spin? That is the cheapest acoustic archtop currently on the market (that I've seen) and (IMHO) it sounds freakin' good! (P.S.: Someone buy me one!)

    ~DB
    One of my uncles passed on several years ago and in closing down his apartment I came across a Gibson. It had one F hole as opposed to two, which I had never seen before. The strings were old and the electronics were buzzing a bit, so I took it home, cleaned it up, put new strings on and messed with the electronics until I got it sounding OK.

    I didn't care for it and wasn't going to keep it, as it was a bit thin sounding. While I don't remember the exact model I was able to get a number off it, did some research on the internet, and discovered it was a student model that was in production around 1960.

    I ended up getting $1200 for it, the going rate at that time, which I based on what I saw various vintage shops asking for it and on its condition, which was excellent. I remember thinking "Wow, people who are into Gibsons will buy any model they ever made!" It wasn't even top of the line (OK, I would have kept it had it been).
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratocaster View Post
    Benedetto guitars are only bought by stock brokers and lawyers who can't play...... oh well.
    As far as I'm concerned, that's a crock and a half. I'm a retired dentist. I own a Benedetto and I can definitely play it. I know my music theory and I can apply it well. I may not be a Barney Kessel, Jim Hall or a Joe Pass but I can hold my own pretty well because I continue to work hard at the guitar to get better. BTW, do you know how many lawyers, doctors, stock brokers and other professionals there are that can play jazz like there's no tomorrow? Loads and they're really good. We work our butts off in schools for a good number of years with no pay while at the same time paying ridiculous school fees to learn our professions to be able to afford some of the things that are important to us. Nobody but nobody has ever handed us anything on a silver platter. I gigged on weekends for 8 years so I could have a few bucks in my pocket after I got done paying for books and supplies. I had to take out big time loans for tuition which I paid worked hard to pay back. I personally got where I am by hard work and long hours with little sleep so I could have something really special to me. Why criticize me because I could afford the heavy price. Who cares anyway if some of those professionals can't play. We're not taking anything away from you. If you want to get paid bigger bucks, go back to school and get a higher education so you can take your music in a better direction. Go talk to the rock guitarists that are making huge money and complain to them that nobody pays jazz musicians. Whose fault is it that jazz guitarists don't get paid much? Not me.

    Another point. I can understand why a D'Angelico, Stromberg, Benedetto or some good archtops cost so much. If you knew how they were made, you'd know why also. Have you seen the prices of a 50's Strat, a 50's Les Paul, a 50's P Bass or an ES-335 lately? Do they have the intrinsic value the great archtops have?

    Just for the record, at this time, I am selling my 1987 Benedetto Cremona for no other reason than I'm not playing it enough for something that caliber. I now play a '39 D'Angelico Excel which I can't put down. Why? Because I'm a history nut and I wanted to touch a piece of musical history from the city where I was born. I've read extensively about D'Angelicos and I wanted to reach out and touch the history I'm too young to have experienced myself. That's what's important to me and I'm definitely no poser.

    And are there professional guitarists that play some of these expensive instruments? You better believe it. Chuck Wayne, Kenny Burrell, Harold Bradley, Homer and Jethro who were outstanding jazz musicians as well as country musicians, George Benson, Bucky Pizzarrelli, Mundell Lowe, and others that are too numerous to list play some of the most expensive instruments made. Don't knock anyone for being able to afford something high end. They worked for every dollar they made and it's their right to spend it wherever they want. I've had enough of this kind of complaining and bashing. Quit yammering about who deserves and who doesn't deserve what instrument.
    Last edited by hot ford coupe; 03-05-2011 at 01:24 AM.

  19. #18
    Baltar Hornbeek Guest
    Hey, anyone that can serve relief of the dreaded tooth ache, deserves a full and happy retirement on D'Angelicos, Strombergs and Benedettos. Enjoy them and support your local musicians.

  20. #19

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    Thanks for the kind words BH. Fortunate for me, my D'A has an old refinish and a refret. That's what made it more affordable for me.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, that's a crock and a half.
    There seems to be a widely held belief that a great number of these high-end instruments are purchased by collectors who don't play, the demand of which prices them out of reach for most musicians who would be interested in purchasing them to make music. I wonder to what extent this is true.

    I don't know if it was really intended as some kind of class warfare statement. For whatever reason, lawyers always seem to be fair game for vilificationin our society.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, that's a crock and a half. I'm a retired dentist. I own a Benedetto and I can definitely play it. I know my music theory and I can apply it well. I may not be a Barney Kessel, Jim Hall or a Joe Pass but I can hold my own pretty well because I continue to work hard at the guitar to get better. BTW, do you know how many lawyers, doctors, stock brokers and other professionals there are that can play jazz like there's no tomorrow? Loads and they're really good. We work our butts off in schools for a good number of years with no pay while at the same time paying ridiculous school fees to learn our professions to be able to afford some of the things that are important to us. Nobody but nobody has ever handed us anything on a silver platter. I gigged on weekends for 8 years so I could have a few bucks in my pocket after I got done paying for books and supplies. I had to take out big time loans for tuition which I paid worked hard to pay back. I personally got where I am by hard work and long hours with little sleep so I could have something really special to me. Why criticize me because I could afford the heavy price. Who cares anyway if some of those professionals can't play. We're not taking anything away from you. If you want to get paid bigger bucks, go back to school and get a higher education so you can take your music in a better direction. Go talk to the rock guitarists that are making huge money and complain to them that nobody pays jazz musicians. Whose fault is it that jazz guitarists don't get paid much? Not me.
    After reading this I immediately went to find some info on this man:

    Ron Odrich (website)

    Ron Odrich (CBS This morning segment)

    Great player. My Dad was a bassist and Ron worked on his teeth; I think they did some gigs together at some point. A real virtuoso.

    With all due respect I don't think the OP was cutting on doctors; he made an offhand crack about lawyers and stockbrokers.

    Several points from my perspective:

    1. I really don't care who buys what instrument. It's my personal OPINION, however, that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money even if it's Donald Trump who does it.

    2. I agree about Benedetto; I'm not sure why it's in the conversation as they are recognized instruments that many pros use. I've considered one myself. I certainly don't expect anyone to buy it for me.

    3. Not everyone has the ability to go out and be a doctor or a dentist. My brain doesn't work that way; I would suck at it. So while I have enormous respect for those who decide to be something other than a musician and are actually good musicians to boot, well, that just isn't me.

    And who, might I ask, was blaming you for the fact that jazz guitarists "don't get paid much"?

    There's so much subtext in your monologue that at first I thought perhaps David Mamet wrote it for you.
    Last edited by paynow; 03-05-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Or people who can REALLY play and they get their own model...I'm still waiting for the folks over at Benedetto to realize my genius. The call's coming, I know it.
    They wouldn't know genius from schmenius. When they tink your putting your name on something would make them extra money, they'd be willing to have it tatooed to their...

  24. #23

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    Hey paynow. I understand where you're coming from.

    1. Firstly, let me say that I didn't take this as a cut on doctors. I just used doctors as another example of a highly paid profession.

    2. I also believe like you do that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money. I would never consider it. My D'A cost $17,000 and I had to sell 6 guitars to get it. That's pretty much my limit.

    3. As far as Benedettos are concerned, they're fine instruments and are played by many good musicians. I really like mine but it sat in my house unplayed for a year and that isn't good. Great instruments need to be played and not stuck somewhere in a vault or closet. That's the only reason why I'm selling it.

    4. I share your opinion that not everyone is suited for medical practice. That's not a dig but it's a fact. It's the same with law, business and whatever. Not everyone is cut out to be the same thing and I'm the first to recognize that. I'm a lousy businessman and I don't at all have the personality it takes to be a lawyer or many other professions for that matter. I don't believe that everyone should be a doctor if they want to have a better paying job. That was used as just an example. Notice that I mentioned a higher education to take the music in a different direction.

    Lastly, I know that nobody is blaming me for low salaries in jazz. It's an unfortunate situation that jazz musicians aren't paid well.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    They wouldn't know genius from schmenius. When they tink your putting your name on something would make them extra money, they'd be willing to have it tatooed to their...
    It's a symbiotic relationship. Ibanez gets good value out of Satriani because he releases regular albums and tours a lot. By contrast, their Andy Timmons model has been discontinued, presumably because Timmons hasn't released an album for years and may not be touring. The irony there is that, technically and creatively, Timmons is a much better player and some of the tones he got from the AT model suggest it was a very good guitar.

    It's also interesting how they match the player to the market. Ibanez uses Vai to push a top-end model while Gibson uses Slash to push Epiphones, knowing that Slash fans probably can't afford a top end Lester.

    One problem Fender had in this area was that, for years, probably the best-known Strat player was SRV. It's hard to market a $3K SRV model when every Stevie fan knows that his Strat was stock standard from a pawn shop. On top of that, Vaughan's major modification was the upside down tremolo - who would want that? Even worse, the most famous Strat player of all was a leftie who played upside down! No surprise then that there is no Jimi Strat.

    Still, there must be value in the celebrity endorsement. I've read that Keith Richards has 5,000 guitars - nearly all given to him in the hope that he would play them onstage or on a video.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, that's a crock and a half. I'm a retired dentist. I own a Benedetto and I can definitely play it. I know my music theory and I can apply it well. I may not be a Barney Kessel, Jim Hall or a Joe Pass but I can hold my own pretty well because I continue to work hard at the guitar to get better. BTW, do you know how many lawyers, doctors, stock brokers and other professionals there are that can play jazz like there's no tomorrow? Loads and they're really good. We work our butts off in schools for a good number of years with no pay while at the same time paying ridiculous school fees to learn our professions to be able to afford some of the things that are important to us. Nobody but nobody has ever handed us anything on a silver platter. I gigged on weekends for 8 years so I could have a few bucks in my pocket after I got done paying for books and supplies. I had to take out big time loans for tuition which I paid worked hard to pay back. I personally got where I am by hard work and long hours with little sleep so I could have something really special to me. Why criticize me because I could afford the heavy price. Who cares anyway if some of those professionals can't play. We're not taking anything away from you. If you want to get paid bigger bucks, go back to school and get a higher education so you can take your music in a better direction. Go talk to the rock guitarists that are making huge money and complain to them that nobody pays jazz musicians. Whose fault is it that jazz guitarists don't get paid much? Not me.

    Another point. I can understand why a D'Angelico, Stromberg, Benedetto or some good archtops cost so much. If you knew how they were made, you'd know why also. Have you seen the prices of a 50's Strat, a 50's Les Paul, a 50's P Bass or an ES-335 lately? Do they have the intrinsic value the great archtops have?

    Just for the record, at this time, I am selling my 1987 Benedetto Cremona for no other reason than I'm not playing it enough for something that caliber. I now play a '39 D'Angelico Excel which I can't put down. Why? Because I'm a history nut and I wanted to touch a piece of musical history from the city where I was born. I've read extensively about D'Angelicos and I wanted to reach out and touch the history I'm too young to have experienced myself. That's what's important to me and I'm definitely no poser.

    And are there professional guitarists that play some of these expensive instruments? You better believe it. Chuck Wayne, Kenny Burrell, Harold Bradley, Homer and Jethro who were outstanding jazz musicians as well as country musicians, George Benson, Bucky Pizzarrelli, Mundell Lowe, and others that are too numerous to list play some of the most expensive instruments made. Don't knock anyone for being able to afford something high end. They worked for every dollar they made and it's their right to spend it wherever they want. I've had enough of this kind of complaining and bashing. Quit yammering about who deserves and who doesn't deserve what instrument.
    I think the train of thought on this thread is that a lot - perhaps the majority - of high end guitars are purchased by folks who may not be serious players. Sure they play, but have they "paid their dues" in the woodshed and gigging.

    Obviously that a stereotype and not applicable across the board. There are many exceptions I'm sure. I have a day job as a senior director of networks and telecom for a large healthcare company. This has allowed me to get some good gear. But I've also played thousands of gigs and spent thousands and thousands of hours practicing. I'm sure there are doctors, lawyers, stock brokers and such who have done the same. Whether you flip burgers as your day job or do brain surgery, most jazz guitarists have to make a living doing something besides music. I agree there should be no prejudice just because someone's got a good day job.

    I worked with a guy in his early thirties who had made millions selling technology hardware. He liked guitars and could play some decent blues, but wasn't a guy who practiced much at all or who ever gigged. He was buying a LOT of vintage guitars as an investment. On almost a weekly basis I'd see or hear about a new vintage ax or amp he'd acquired. Did I mind? No. Did it bother me? No. Did I think it was cool he could get all the stuff? Yes. Was I drooling over it? Yes. I never saw his collection in a negative light at all. Thought it was cool.

    The Gibson L-5 I currently own used to belong to an awesome doctor in town who actually treated my young daughter when she was in intensive care a few years ago. He had a large collection of archtops. I never heard him play, but I heard he was really good. Sadly, he passed away at a young age and a mutual friend was helping his wife sell some of his instruments. The L-5 I got was one of the lower end guitars in his collection.

    One thing I do wince at is this. The area I live in has a lot of wealth (I bring the average down, not up ). I teach and its not uncommon for one of my students to come from a very wealthy home. Its also not uncommon for these new students who are just learning their basic chords and how to hold a pick to show up at his 2nd or 3rd lesson with a $2k - $3k guitar.

    Again, there are obviously successful professionals who can play circles around us all. But I think the gist of this thread is asking if the MAJORITY of high end instruments are owned by folks that are not serious players.

    I don't know how we'll ever really know.

    P.S. a guitarist I played in a band with back in the 70s is now head of neurology at a major Hospital in New York. He's a good player - but he still has the same gear he had back when we were starving musicians. He hasn't bought any new guitars since then. Just another example of the difficulty in pigeonholing someone into a behavior.
    Last edited by SwingSwangSwung; 03-05-2011 at 10:33 AM.
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  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Hey paynow. I understand where you're coming from.

    1. Firstly, let me say that I didn't take this as a cut on doctors. I just used doctors as another example of a highly paid profession.

    2. I also believe like you do that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money. I would never consider it. My D'A cost $17,000 and I had to sell 6 guitars to get it. That's pretty much my limit.

    3. As far as Benedettos are concerned, they're fine instruments and are played by many good musicians. I really like mine but it sat in my house unplayed for a year and that isn't good. Great instruments need to be played and not stuck somewhere in a vault or closet. That's the only reason why I'm selling it.

    4. I share your opinion that not everyone is suited for medical practice. That's not a dig but it's a fact. It's the same with law, business and whatever. Not everyone is cut out to be the same thing and I'm the first to recognize that. I'm a lousy businessman and I don't at all have the personality it takes to be a lawyer or many other professions for that matter. I don't believe that everyone should be a doctor if they want to have a better paying job. That was used as just an example. Notice that I mentioned a higher education to take the music in a different direction.

    Lastly, I know that nobody is blaming me for low salaries in jazz. It's an unfortunate situation that jazz musicians aren't paid well.
    No worries Doc. I actually agree with you about people whining when it comes to the music business and its "salaries"; it is what it is and you have to know that going in. For the most part you're not going to be able to afford the high price axe, if you're on a certain level and music is all you do (unless you're willing to save for years and by then you may be dead ).

    The interesting thing about Ron Odrich is that he wanted to be a dentist; it wasn't that he couldn't cut it at music and went into something else. In fact, he says in the interview that his father and brother told him he should only pursue music. His drummer is also a doctor. You're right, there are many folks in other fields who are gifted musicians. And I see you are from NYC originally (I was born in NYC and raised in the burbs); Odrich is a major periodontist with an office in the high rent district. I think it's awesome that this man can do both and do them well.

    I wish I could; I'd fix my own teeth so I could have a smile like this:
    Last edited by paynow; 03-05-2011 at 10:43 AM.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  28. #27

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    I think there is a subconscious phenomen which is very common. I always see prices and price relativity in terms of my first paycheck. If something seemed expensive back in 1972 when I worked construction for $80/week, I still think of it as expensive.

    USA-made guitars are a perfect example. In 1972, we had tariffs and import quotas because we had a viable Australian guitar industry. The cost of currency conversion back then was absurd. All these things changed in the 80s. I can buy a Strat now in the same price range as Ibanez.

    My limit for a guitar is actually quite high, even though I'm on disability pension. I calculate my limit as: if I sold all my existing axes and spent the cash on one nice guitar, I would be around the $6K mark. I've been playing for 40 years so I know that $6K guitar would get played, probably for 20 years. 20 years of pleasure for $6K is really quite reasonable. (less than $6/week)

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    I also believe like you do that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money...
    I like it better when you were posting the quit whining stuff.

    80 grand on guitar is not a waste if you sell it in five years for 150.

  30. #29

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    Anyone who takes up jazz with the idea of making big money should have their head examined by a qualified physician who will charge them a fee which will enable said physician to purchase a top end Gibson Hollowbody guitar.

    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  31. #30

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    Hey SSS. You got exactly what I mean.

    Another point I thought about. I used to get ticked off myself when I saw how much guys like Scott Chinery and Akira Tsumura accumulated. I said how dare they take all those great guitars out of circulation so I couldn't get one. Then I realized that they were doing the archtop a great service. They were preserving the greatest guitars in history just like a number of violinists and collectors are preserving all of the Strads, Guaneris and Amatis that are revered. Can you imagine what would happen to so many of those instruments if they were extensively gigged? They'd get destroyed like so many guitars I see in pawn shops.

    Hey paynow. You've also made some great points. You've got to know what you're getting into when you choose a profession. It's no fun getting big surprises. Just like Ron Odrich, I wanted to be a dentist all along. I always knew that being a jazz musician wouldn't really get me where I wanted to go in life. I was originally a bass player while I was going to school and used the gigs for extra cash until I graduated. I wasn't a periodontist. I was a prosthodontist. I worked closely with the periodontist. After the periodontist got done cleaning up the damage, I did the reconstructions.

    Hey Banksia. Your last statement tells the same story as mine. My D'A gets played no less than 16 hours a week and it's total pleasure. When I play it (I play mostly standards from the late 20's to the early 50's) I can see visions of the big bands, the studios, the dancehalls, the great nightclubs and playhouses where my favorite music was played.

    Aristotle, you made the strongest point and I stand corrected. I meant to say if I spent $80 balloons on a guitar, my wife would waste me.

    Finally Drumbler. You speak the musical truth, man. Thanks for that thought. It's great.
    Last edited by hot ford coupe; 03-05-2011 at 07:22 PM.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Hey SSS. You got exactly what I mean.
    Hey paynow. You've also made some great points. You've got to know what you're getting into when you choose a profession. It's no fun getting big surprises. Just like Ron Odrich, I wanted to be a dentist all along. I always knew that being a jazz musician wouldn't really get me where I wanted to go in life. I was originally a bass player while I was going to school and used the gigs for extra cash until I graduated. I wasn't a periodontist. I was a prosthodontist. I worked closely with the periodontist. After the periodontist got done cleaning up the damage, I did the reconstructions.
    Doc, with the teeth I've got I need the dentist, the orthodontist, the periodontist the prosthodontist and a general contractor with a jackhammer.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  33. #32

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    Now that we can handle. Let me go down to the city hall, we'll pull a couple of building permits and as soon as we get some building materials we can start.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Now that we can handle. Let me go down to the city hall, we'll pull a couple of building permits and as soon as we get some building materials we can start.
    Yeah, but if you want those building permits you're going to have to call my "friend" over in Canarsie first.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    They wouldn't know genius from schmenius. When they tink your putting your name on something would make them extra money, they'd be willing to have it tatooed to their...
    Huh? Bob Benedetto is a genius. And, the people around him know it.

    They can't recognize great players? Let's look at some of their players past and present; Martino, Bruno, Oberg, Pizzarelli, Johnny Smith, Alden, Grapelli, Wayne, and many others.

    http://benedettoguitars.com/players/benedetto-artists/


    Further, they don't do signature models as continuing production runs anymore. The only current signature model that i know of is a one-off. But what if they did?

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    Huh? Bob Benedetto is a genius. And, the people around him know it.

    They can't recognize great players? Let's look at some of their players past and present; Martino, Bruno, Oberg, Pizzarelli, Johnny Smith, Alden, Grapelli, Wayne, and many others.
    I guess you're right. Nobody who posts here is "genius" enough to figure out those guys are good.

    Did he ever work for Nike, because someone over there was genius enough to figure out Michael Jordan's name could help sell sneakers.

    Aristotle, you made the strongest point and I stand corrected. I meant to say if I spent $80 balloons on a guitar, my wife would waste me.
    I hear ya. I used to have a wife like that.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by paynow View Post
    Yeah, but if you want those building permits you're going to have to call my "friend" over in Canarsie first.
    Oh yeah, I know him. He was the one that was helping me get those waste management permits if you know what I mean. And then there's the cement guys and the .............

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Oh yeah, I know him. He was the one that was helping me get those waste management permits if you know what I mean. And then there's the cement guys and the .............
    Riddle:

    How many teamsters does it take to screw in a light bulb?
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Oh yeah, I know him. He was the one that was helping me get those waste management permits if you know what I mean. And then there's the cement guys and the .............
    Don't tell me. They're Sopranos.

  40. #39
    Many yrs back I was just getting interested in used vintage acoustic archtop gtrs. One could find a nice L-5, Gretsch, Epiphone or sim, save some $ and buy it eventually. Then collectors got into the game and prices shot up for vintage instruments. It then made it a lot less affordable to get these same gtrs. Made to tougher for us to afford nice axes. Just a point on affordability of jazz gtrs
    steel drum music by my group Steel Tropics

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by bahama View Post
    Many yrs back I was just getting interested in used vintage acoustic archtop gtrs. One could find a nice L-5, Gretsch, Epiphone or sim, save some $ and buy it eventually. Then collectors got into the game and prices shot up for vintage instruments. It then made it a lot less affordable to get these same gtrs. Made to tougher for us to afford nice axes. Just a point on affordability of jazz gtrs

    so, everybody else should have waited to buy theirs until you got yours eh?

    boo hoo.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    I guess you're right. Nobody who posts here is "genius" enough to figure out those guys are good.

    Did he ever work for Nike, because someone over there was genius enough to figure out Michael Jordan's name could help sell sneakers.

    I hear ya. I used to have a wife like that.

    why so angry and cynical?

    those players don't have to buy Benedettos you know. further, i can tell you from reading many quotes that most are proud as heck of their guitars, and they love, love, love them.

    but lets back up. how well do you know the folks over there?

    1. do you own one of their instruments and do you have a beef, or
    2. are you just some anti-capitalist, or
    3. are you just one more of the "all guitars over my price range are crap and only for rich assholes" crowd?

    i'm going with #3.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    so, everybody else should have waited to buy theirs until you got yours eh?

    boo hoo.
    Whoa, dude! I think you've missed the point here. It's a fact that the prices of the best vintage guitars have been pushed beyond the grasp of the average player, not an opinion. I don't see a complaint here and I don't see sour grapes either. One good thing that has happened is that there are a bunch of clips being put on YouTube where you can at least hear some of the best instruments if you can't own them. That way I can get to hear the great sounds without having to spend the money or agonize over it.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    why so angry and cynical?

    those players don't have to buy Benedettos you know. further, i can tell you from reading many quotes that most are proud as heck of their guitars, and they love, love, love them.

    but lets back up. how well do you know the folks over there?

    1. do you own one of their instruments and do you have a beef, or
    2. are you just some anti-capitalist, or
    3. are you just one more of the "all guitars over my price range are crap and only for rich assholes" crowd?

    i'm going with #3.
    Whoa again!! This original thought was not about not recognizing which players are geniuses but which names the companies could use to make the most money on their guitars. That's pure capitalism and that's how it works. A player can be a genius and only be known to a small select group. You can't make money on that. You'd need to use a really popular name that everyone wants to be like in order to get the most demand. If you want to sell Les Paul models, you don't put Carmen Maestren's name on them. He's a great player but not well know to all players.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    why so angry and cynical?

    those players don't have to buy Benedettos you know. further, i can tell you from reading many quotes that most are proud as heck of their guitars, and they love, love, love them.

    but lets back up. how well do you know the folks over there?

    1. do you own one of their instruments and do you have a beef, or
    2. are you just some anti-capitalist, or
    3. are you just one more of the "all guitars over my price range are crap and only for rich assholes" crowd?

    i'm going with #3.
    Why so angry and cynical? BTW, you couldn't be more wrong on all 3. That is, I am more of an asshole capitalist who never had one of their guitars, who sees nothing wrong with another capitalist trying enhance the value of his property by having a celebrity endorse it.

  46. #45

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    The most expensive guitar I almost bought was a $150,000 Martin D45 from 1940. I was in Gruhn Guitars and my wife bumped up against it and amost knocked it over. Good thing she had fast hands and I didn't have to buy it. Too bad I didn't have a clean pair of shorts to change into at the time. Fortunately, nobody saw it happen. That was what you call a close call.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Whoa, dude! I think you've missed the point here. It's a fact that the prices of the best vintage guitars have been pushed beyond the grasp of the average player, not an opinion. I don't see a complaint here and I don't see sour grapes either. One good thing that has happened is that there are a bunch of clips being put on YouTube where you can at least hear some of the best instruments if you can't own them. That way I can get to hear the great sounds without having to spend the money or agonize over it.

    average players? i think you mean average income. to an earlier point, the people who can afford these are typically average players, very average. because they do something else for a living.

    besides. so what? average players number in the millions! vintage Gibsons, Martins, Fenders custom archtops etc don't. there aren't enough to go around.

    i maintain, some here are complaining about supply and demand.

    whyzat?

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe View Post
    Whoa again!! This original thought was not about not recognizing which players are geniuses but which names the companies could use to make the most money on their guitars. That's pure capitalism and that's how it works. A player can be a genius and only be known to a small select group. You can't make money on that. You'd need to use a really popular name that everyone wants to be like in order to get the most demand. If you want to sell Les Paul models, you don't put Carmen Maestren's name on them. He's a great player but not well know to all players.

    no. firstly the comment was made by another poster, not you. secondly it was referencing the Benedetto company, not all companies. not Gibson or Fender. Benedetto's signature players have always been jazzers. that means that they are all obscure in the grand scheme of things, even the bigger name jazzers.

    they don't have any "really popular" names. (put another way, they don't have Benson.)

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    Why so angry and cynical? BTW, you couldn't be more wrong on all 3. That is, I am more of an asshole capitalist who never had one of their guitars, who sees nothing wrong with another capitalist trying enhance the value of his property by having a celebrity endorse it.
    OK. so why did you say that Bob B. has no capacity to recognize genious?

    and why did you say that he would tattoo a big name player's name on his ass? especially in light of the fact that his new company has issued a policy of discontinuing signature guitars.

    why the cynical attack?

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    OK. so why did you say that Bob B. has no capacity to recognize genious?
    I said nothing about any "Bob." I made a general statement about business. If someone thinks there's a buck to me made, they'll even put Charlie Sheen's name on something, and they won't care if he's a genius or a schmeius.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    no. firstly the comment was made by another poster, not you. secondly it was referencing the Benedetto company, not all companies. not Gibson or Fender. Benedetto's signature players have always been jazzers. that means that they are all obscure in the grand scheme of things, even the bigger name jazzers.

    they don't have any "really popular" names. (put another way, they don't have Benson.)
    I know it was somebody else. Benedetto was just used as one example and --------- Oh poop. I give up. I need a break. I'm going to my room and play my guitar. I just got a new Chet Baker CD and I need to try it out.