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Hey all,
I just wanted to get your opinions on this topic and what you would do in this situation.
So I've gone to one of the more well known archtop builders (who will remain anonymous) around today and asked him to build me a custom made instrument. I am due to go pick up said instrument from the US (I live in New Zealand) in July. (after being on the waiting list for a year and paying the deposit)
I've just heard that the instrument is completed and was very excited, until I saw the pictures. I asked him to build a single pickup guitar but I was surprised with two pickups. As well as having the wrong colored hardware. I've been in contact since and confirmed there's nothing that can be done to convert the double pickups to single (obviously) and he is willing to change the hardware. I haven't replied to him yet. I do have the final specsheet in writing stating single pickup.
What would you guys do in this situation? On one hand, the extra pickup does add some versatility to the guitar and it is the right kind of instrument to have two pickups. On the other, I really quite don't like the look of the two pickups (I think it ruins the balance of the design), costs more to have two and more importantly - I didn't ask for it!
I'm inclined to ask for a re-build, do you think it's a big enough fuck up to warrant that? After all, it's another giant hole in the top which I didn't want and it's an expensive guitar (~5K USD). The complication is that, even if he agreed to rebuild it (I'm not sure he will, although he seems like a very reasonable guy), I've set up the US trip to pick up the guitar but I'm not sure if it would be done in time, and it costs a ton of money to have it sent here.
I really love this guy's work and his other guitars I've played are phenomenal so I definitely don't want to burn this bridge. At the same time, I don't really want to 'waste' this trip to the US, plus he already has part of the money. I'm going to send him another email explaining my thoughts soon but I just wanted some second opinions.
Thank you for reading this wall of text..
Update 1 ------
Thank you all for your input and kind words - it's much appreciated!
Just because there are a suggestions he's trying to pass off a previous build as mine - I know for a fact that he's not trying to sell off a different guitar because I asked for a thinline version of what is normally an archtop (and he told me it was his first time doing it on the model). Odds of that happening while also having the correct finish/woods are pretty slim I imagine.
I guess a bit of an update is in order - I emailed him asking my options were. He admitted to his mistake although the tone was disappointingly casual and not very apologetic. He doesn't think the re-build will be done in time for the trip (or maybe it was a way of him saying he doesn't want to, I don't know). The only real options that he presented were buy this guitar (no mention of a DC) or get a refund after he's found another buyer for it. (Which he would quite quickly I imagine, he's a very popular builder)
I'm at a point where I still want to work something out with him because I've already invested a lot of resources in this guitar. I asked if he's sure he can't do a rebuild and if he's willing to give me a discount should I choose to stick with it or if he has something in stock that I might be interested in.
Currently waiting on the response.
Update 2 -----------
Hey guys, thank you for the comments and support!
Sorry that I'm not updating more consistently - this happened to be right in the middle of a local jazz festival so time has been scarce.
So I've sent him an email yesterday, I suppose worded in a much more down to earth manner, and was honest about how I felt. And I think I've managed to have him see it from my point of view.
The reply that followed was much more reasonable and definitely very apologetic. Seemed to me he had originally thought the extra pickup wasn't a very big deal and almost a bonus, perhaps I was too softly spoken in my previous exchanges in an attempt to not sabotage the relationship.
Once he understood that I thought it was a big deal, he presented me with a heartfelt apology along with an offer of a discounted price of the guitar. He did still ask me to wait for the refund should I choose to go that way but it was much more sincere. It was something that I necessarily didn't have a problem even originally, because I know he has a very good reputation and someone will buy the guitar very quickly, I was simply just ticked off at the tone of the request.
Unfortunately a re-build still isn't an option but I can understand that because I know he has an extremely packed waiting list and I'm in the US in a month and a half's time. (and I wouldn't want something like to be rushed anyway)
So I guess I'm currently deciding whether I should accept this guitar or not. I was kind of dead set on a re-build but after receiving the latest email and reading you guy's opinions - I feel like I am much more calm and hopefully seeing things more clearly. It is definitely a very nice looking guitar and knowing his other guitars, I'm sure it sounds very good as well. Plus I have already booked this trip to pick up the thing and to return without a guitar would be quite disappointing. And getting on somebody else's waiting list and doing it all over again seems like another very long process and will probably require another trip there anyway. And it will end up being a pretty good deal.
On the other hand, I already have very nice guitars which I'm totally happy playing in the mean time, rather than settling for something that meets 90% of my criteria, I can wait for something that meets 99.99%.
I've told him I'm going to sit on this decision for a couple of days before I make the final decision and that's where we're sitting now! I will update again for closure...Last edited by itsall4you; 05-28-2018 at 05:21 AM.
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05-26-2018 12:31 AM
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That's a very personal decison. If you think this guy is a great builder and you can live with it, go for it. Some actually prefer the sound of a two pickup guitar, even if they only use the neck pickup. Some say there is more "thunk," whatever that is.
If you can't live with it, and it is not a desirable surprise, it seems you have every right to ask for a redo if your specs for single pickup are in writing. That's a big, glaring f**k up. NZ to US is a major trip. IMHO, it's not like me popping down to San Francisco, or even LA, from my home in the Sacramento area.Last edited by Chazmo; 05-26-2018 at 01:15 AM.
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If you do decide to take that guitar then I would ask to pay the price you would have for the one pickup guitar you ordered. That is on him, not you, and that is a surprisingly embarrassing mistake. It would be one way to start trying to make that mistake up to you to honor the price you expected when ordering the one pickup guitar. Luckily the hardware is easily changed I suppose but still, that is an issue that got mixed up too. Did he someone have someone else’s spec sheet out with your name on it?
I like the look of a one pickup guitar but anything I plan on playing amplified I want two pickups. It reduces feedback and I like the tone more when coming through an amp with that extra mass on the top - that works both ways though as it reduces vibration on the top and will not sound the same acoustically. If this is an issue for you then that could be a dealbreaker. And as shallow as it sounds, the look is important and one of the reasons to order a guitar made just for you is to make sure it is exactly as you want it to be. If you will have regrets with two pickups then that would be sad but passing on it might be the better option. You could have advantages with two pickups depending on your use of the guitar so if you can honestly take the guitar and be happy with the mixup then that’s great but really think a out if you will have any regrets here taking the guitar.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Umm.. no. Two pickups when you asked for one? What kind of custom maker could make that sort of mistake? And once they realize the mistake why would they even suggest you accept such a thing? And where was the communication during the build process? Would not trust the individuals attitude on a rebuild. Ask for your deposit back. Start over.
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Wow, that's a major disappointment! I'm kinda curious: what was his explanation for the mess-up?? [and good thing you have a written invoice!] I would hope he'd be extremely apologetic, and do whatever he can to take care of you quickly! If he doesn't, then maybe his name should not be left "anonymous," since that is not good business practice!
Best of luck!
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If you wanted one pickup from the start, there were good reasons. If he had tried to change your mind before the build, it certainly wouldn't have flown, right? If you walked into Guitar Center with your mind set on an L5 Wes, it's not for somebody to say "Take the L5CES you know you want it, right?"
If you knew what you wanted enough to get a custom build, then you know what you want. You've got to live with that guitar.
Yeah you can try it out but it's not the guitar you ordered. By that I mean you ordered something in your mind based on, I'd assume, a long decision making process wherein you drew upon your playing experience and you decided to get a guitar that exactly meets your playing persona and will allow you to be yourself. That's it.
If I wanted a car, and I'd always wanted a convertable by Lotus so I ordered an Elise, and the dealer called me up and said How about a porsche SUV, do you think I'd go for the versatility argument?
Even as a novice woodworker, I was taught "Measure twice, cut once". Custom builder? What builder is oblivious of the orders of the person who commissions a guitar? What luthier would even THINK of suggesting there could be a compromise solution?
I really want to know who this is. Really I do.
Did you order a custom because you had the money and thought Why Not? or did you order it because only THAT instrument would do?
I'll let you answer that yourself.
DavidLast edited by TH; 05-26-2018 at 02:49 AM.
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I think he should have built you a purple seven string if he felt like it, right?
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Thank you everyone for responding! I really appreciate it! I think I will ask for a rebuild and see what he says, it looks like I'm not alone in thinking that it's a pretty major f up.
Thank you!
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
It's a semi with a carved top actually! I would probably be ok with it if I was able to play it and it was a great instrument but the catch is that I'm on the other side of the world and I will only be able to play it once I'm in the States in July - which would be too late to do anything about if I didn't like it.
Unfortunately I highly doubt he has a similar build actually since mine was kind of unique. Ugh
He said he could have sworn I asked for two, which I never did. The model usually only comes with one and he suggested that I should go with two. Then I specifically asked for a single as I never use the bridge anyway. I do think it was an honest mistake though. Originally Posted by marcwhy
Thank you!
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One and two pickup guitars are two very different guitars, almost of another genre if we re talking archtops. Most builders allow you not to buy the instrument they made for you if for any reason you are not satisfied with it. A delicate matter, especially if you respect the person and their work, but ultimately I feel you don't do their business a favor by buying an instrument you don't care for.
Wasn't there a sheet describing the order you placed when you did the commission? What an unfortunate mistake.
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Yes there was actually a whole process of talking through the specs for ages then we had a spec confirmation just before he started building it. I was pretty clear on the single pickup - when he sent me the sheet for me to confirm it clearly stated single pickup. Originally Posted by Alter
One and two pickup guitars are two very different guitars, almost of another genre if we re talking archtops. Most builders allow you not to buy the instrument they made for you if for any reason you are not satisfied with it. A delicate matter, especially if you respect the person and their work, but ultimately I feel you don't do their business a favor by buying an instrument you don't care for.
Wasn't there a sheet describing the order you placed when you did the commission? What an unfortunate mistake.
I actually really enjoyed the process and believe this is a total one-off mistake but I agree - ultimately this is not what I envisioned and without the persuasion of me actually being able to play the guitar I think I'm going to have to ask for him to do a rebuild - or refund my deposit (which would really suck, because while I would enjoy the trip to the States regardless, the whole reason for it was to pickup the guitar.)
Thank you!
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Which implies a guitar built to non-standard specs you agreed upon with the builder. The whole point is that you shell out a fair amount of money for a guitar you have espcially made for you. You say the hardware is wrong, and the guitar has two pickups, that’s two major mistakes, specifically for someone who lives and breathes guitars, like a good builder should. I really start to wonder if this guitar was built for you, or if this was a model he had lying around... For me, it’s indeed the difference between a convertible and a SUV, and not the kind of ‘mistake’ any serious professional would make. It could of course still be a terrific guitar, but if I were in your shoes, I couldn’t live with it; i always would have the nagging feeling of being had somehow...
just my two bits... anyhow, whatever you decide, the best of luck, and may you end op with a lovely guitar!
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I would be very frustrated and turned off. A custom build is supposed to be tailored to your specs. no compromises that's why you go custom. If it were me somehow I would never be totally happy deep inside. I would listen to his proposal if there were one, but for even money I really think I would cancel the whole order. Thats just me but I find when there is a pock mark on what's supposed to be an exciting experience, somehow it never swings in the right direction.
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How does this even happen in the modern age of communication? Didn't the builder keep you informed on the building process, send pictures along the way, etc? I would not accept it and would ask for a rebuild or refund.
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Your spec sheets (in writing) are clear ?---one pu
How much money have you paid, to date?
Not to be cynical....maybe this guy slipped you another one he couldn't sell?
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Yes, if you were truly OK with this change, you'd have accepted it without struggle over the decision. Originally Posted by itsall4you
Delicate choice only because the you want to avoid spoiling your relationship with the builder, but in the end he has to be reasonable. Builder made significant error, and while it is fine for him to check if you'd accept the result, he cannot fault you for turning it down. He will find a different buyer for this one, and that inconvenience is of his own making. Of course you're put in an awkward position, having paid deposit and planned to travel, and he should do all he can to accomadate your request to get the guitar you were due.
Hope this gets resolved with no more harm to you than the delay and change in travel schedule.
John
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There is a reason why many folks ordering an expensive custom made instrument would ask for regular update of the process, you could have seen the dual pickup cut before it is too late and ask for a new top plate...
As reputable as the luthier might be, it is not the instrument you both agreed on in written form at the beginning (read contract), so you don't need to even consider accepting it.
Mistakes can and do happen in making business, but its never on the customer to absorb the mistake in the end...
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Whoa, this is bad news. If you have agreed a written spec, then I would consider that an agreement to build the guitar as you want it.
I'm at the mid-build point with a single pickup guitar Daniel Slaman is building for me in the Netherlands. He knows very clearly what I want, and I'm sure would accept his error if a similar situation occurred with my build - without previous agreement in writing for any changes in the spec. He has sent me over 60 photos of the build so far, with updates on the progress.
By all means agree to try it, if you are going to see him, but make it clear that if you really don't like the two pickup version, you expect a re-build or refund. As others have said, it is far too much of a downer to order a custom build, wait for it, then not get what you want.
Good luck with getting a good resolution.
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I work in a service industry, I build things for people (kitchens and bathrooms). If you make a mistake, you eat it and give the customer what was promised, period. And if this builder is as "amazing" and well-known as you say he is, he knows that and should have no problem doing a re-build to fix HIS mistake.
As for it not being done in time for the trip.... is it really cheaper to fly to the US than to have a guitar shipped to NZ?
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I'd never have a guitar with only one p'up.
Having said that, being in existence a written document with the agreed upon specs, I'd give him two choices: either he honors the instrument as asked, or you may take the "wrong" instrument at 70% the final price. Take it or leave it.
How does that sound?
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or ask him for 30% off, he'd probably save money in terms of labour and building a new one anyway. It would help with your flight tickets..
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lf you have paperwork documenting your specs, I'd start some dialog with that. Originally Posted by itsall4you
I'd think a pro builder would want to honor that.
Also, is there any possibility he sent you photos of the wrong guitar by mistake?
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I feel for you, this is a real drag, especially with the time and $$$ involved. You do NOT want to spend all that on a guitar that you ultimately will not be thrilled with.
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Get a discount or get your money back. Then go another route/builder. Never trust him again.
If he needs to see it then send him the spec again. Scan a hard copy, take a phone pic, send back as is if it's already electronic, whatever. Don't pay another cent.
If he refuses, paste the spec and his name all over the internet.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 05-26-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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I would feel instinctively this is on him. He needs to make it right.
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My thoughts (and regardless of my past involvement in the business these remain just my thoughts, not some sort of rules, but they are based on my real world experiences) ...
First, if there is any sort of paper trail on the build specs that state that it is to be a one pickup guitar, then there is absolutely no excuse for this and it goes way beyond anything that I would consider to be "forgivable".
I love one pickup guitars and I have owned bunches of them (and play one now). I would not consider a two pickup guitar to be an acceptable alternative. Like Jazzstdnt, I am inclined to say that I would never trust him again. On the other hand, I prefer keeping the focus on solutions that are geared towards making you whole rather than exacting punishment. So I believe that your first priority should be in getting your money back.
Obviously you're best alternative is that he simply give you an immediate refund but understand that most builders don't keep enough cash on hand to accommodate these sorts of situations (they should but should doesn't really matter). If your concern really is in getting out as clean as possible then be a realist and look for solutions rather than an outlet for your frustrations. If he doesn't have the money for a refund, then one solution is for him to sell the guitar and refund you your money from the proceeds. Another is that he gives you a large discount and you have it shipped to someone in the US and you sell it remotely for the discounted price. If you can get decent photos of the guitar once it's complete, then that can be done from NZ using sites like this one, the Gear Page and Reverb.com.
If he won't cooperate with you in any way, then these questions would have to be revisited but try first for a workable if not amicable solution. And try, however difficult it may be, to stay patient. It is better to wait through a delay and get repaid (or at leas as close to repaid as possible) than it is to give up in anger and take the entire loss.
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