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Mark I have a pack of the GB plectrums but don't like them at all….in fact they seem to get caught in the strings all the time. There is a certain roundness to the tip that is required for striking the string at an angle.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The grip of the benson pick is very good but they are just to pointy for me.
I guess GB can make any shape work for him.
I reckon that the 351 tip shape allows accuracy and also slides of the string.
Another vote for the D'Andrea 351 (.71mm) Medium here. My all time fave pick so far and the only one that can feel and sound better than a Fender IMO. They are fantastic plectrums. Just ordered a pack of 72 from Amazon for $11 US.
Last edited by Philco; 09-16-2014 at 07:06 AM. Reason: To add photo of unusually large size (POULS)
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09-16-2014 06:39 AM
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Thanks, Philco. Great to see the picks side by side like that. I think you're right about needing a certain roundness being needed to strike the string at an angle. I picked up a pointy black Jazz III the other day (-I have a tin of picks I have tried and set aside) and that was the first thing that struck me: the sharp point was a problem. Originally Posted by Philco
Mark I have a pack of the GB plectrums but don't like them at all….in fact they seem to get caught in the strings all the time. There is a certain roundness to the tip that is required for striking the string at an angle.
The grip of the benson pick is very good but they are just to pointy for me.
I guess GB can make any shape work for him.
I reckon that the 351 tip shape allows accuracy and also slides of the string.
Another vote for the D'Andrea 351 (.71mm) Medium here. My all time fave pick so far and the only one that can feel and sound better than a Fender IMO. They are fantastic plectrums. Just ordered a pack of 72 from Amazon for $11 US.
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Amazing intro by Adam Rogers, and a very clear view on is right and left hands.
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Some more Peter Farrell footage playing rock tunes.
And here:
Last edited by nunocpinto; 10-28-2014 at 08:24 PM.
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First of all, thanks to Evan for posting that link. It was fun to peruse what HJ had to say, reminiscent of so many talks that I've had with him over the years. However, I should point out that the vast majority of our conversations have dealt with language and transcription (echoing Professor Jones), and not picking per se. He also reveals in those posts just what I had alluded to before, which is that the left hand is every bit as important as the right, if not more. It took him 6-7 months to completely change his picking approach, and Henry also told me that his chops went severely downhill during that time period before he finally got both hands acclimated to what George was doing. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
With that in mind, I've always had to ask myself whether it would be worth it to do a total transformation, and the answer always comes back no because that approach compromises my strengths in both tone and right hand versatility, something that took me many years to develop. Henry knows that all too well, so fooling around with Benson picking was something that I just did for kicks on the side. I've always experimented with a wide variety of techniques, picks, strings, etc, but for me there has to be a viable reason to make a major change. If it ain't broke...
The other reality is that there are many guitarists who play just as effortless and fast as GB without using that approach, even playing things that are related to Benson's work. The late Billy Rogers, Andreas Oberg and my good friend Wolf Marshall are three names that leap to mind. Billy had his own thing, but his speed, legato phrasing and fluidity is so striking similar to GB that most would guess they were hearing George instead. Oberg's favorite jazz guitarist, hands down, is Benson. And Wolf did that brilliant book on GB in his Signature Licks series ("The Best of George Benson"). No publication on the market can touch that one when it comes to Benson's work, yet every single solo was recorded at full speed using conventional picking.
Again, it's a matter of different pick strokes for different folks, or as Mark Rhodes said to me, "Whatever works." Much more to come, but just keep in mind what I said earlier regarding CPFM, because Content, Phrasing, Feel and Message is the ultimate goal, regardless of technical approach.
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I still want you to do me a favor and sometime--when appropriate--ask Henry what it was about whatever George Benson taught him that allowed him to be at ease regardless of tempo when he had not been before with conventional picking. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
We've all heard people and thought, "That guy would be great however he played." But Henry is great this way (-the way George taught him) though he wasn't so great---by his own lights--the other way. And he was already a pro (-though still young.) So with three months of doing what George showed him, he was better than he could get with YEARS of playing the other way. So Henry seems to be saying, by example if not in quote marks, 'some ways really do work better than others.' Why isn't he more explicit about what George showed him, given its vast importance to him (Henry)?
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Mark, that's an easy one. When GB shared his methodology with HJ well over 30 years ago, he asked him not to pass it on to anyone else and Henry has remained steadfastly loyal to his mentor ever since. Therefore, you're not going to see him do any kind of public dissertation on the specifics involved. However, you guys are basically on the right track as far as the picking hand is concerned. Breaking it down scientifically like my friend Tuck (Andress) did long ago with percentage of pick angle and such is really unnecessary. These days you can simply watch GB, Henry or Rodney on YouTube and see for yourself. It's no guarded "Secret of The Holy Grail" or anything like that at all. If there is a far more important secret and as I've been saying all along, it lies in the left hand more than the right. George has stated that in early interviews, describing a "system" that worked for him at the time. All of my improvement speed-wise in recent years has come from that point of view. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I truly feel indebted to Henry on many fronts. When he first heard my work he loved the language, phrasing and deep affinity for the blues that we share in common. Even though he knew that I was beyond busy at the time, he strongly suggested that I get in the studio and start recording daily, promising me that the results would be something special. It was also about that time that he sent me some of his favorite D'Andrea ProPlec picks to compare with the PickBoys I had been using for many years. Take a look:
I had settled on the vintage PickBoy jazz pick (left) after several years of experimenting, mainly because the tone is just killer, but I have to tell you that I was shocked to discover that HJ's pick (right - his name barely discernible due to wear) was also in that fat tone ball park, so I decided to use it for all of the recordings that I did over the next few months. Btw, both picks are on the heavier side (1.5mm), not unusual for jazz at all.
With that in mind, check out two of the studio recordings I did using that pick during the first couple of weeks. On the 300+ bpm uptempo front is the classic Impressions by John Coltrane. Note the Wes-style thumb-brushed octaves on the head followed by several solo choruses, many featuring Montgomery-like shifts as well as nods to GB, Martino and others.
On the considerably slower side (less than 100 bpm) is one of a number of solo tributes that I've done with George in mind. This is my two-chord vamp spin on This Masquerade from GB's epic Breezin' release. My goal has never been to play or sound exactly like GB, but to integrate what I admire most about him into my work (aka "The 5% Rule"). Hope you dig the tracks!
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09-20-2014, 10:09 AM #833destinytot GuestIt seems that way to me, too.However, you guys are basically on the right track as far as the picking hand is concerned.
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Great playing, Mark! Thanks for sharing the details on the pick. I've been wondering why Henry Johnson gets a much fatter, traditional sound, than the other Benson pickers, and it seems like pick thickness is the key. I'm going to have to experiment with that.
Left hand thoughts:
- I never seen Benson or any of the disciples use stretches. It seems like all their positions are in a 4-fret span. It's like the anti-Leavitt.
- Lot of slides to get in between positions.
- From what I understand, generally picking set up to allow a rest-stroke style ala Joe Pass.
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Great playing, Mark Stefani! Love the "Impressions" take. (Haven't got to "This Masquerade" yet.) Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
Mark, that's an easy one. When GB shared his methodology with HJ well over 30 years ago, he asked him not to pass it on to anyone else and Henry has remained steadfastly loyal to his mentor ever since.
I truly feel indebted to Henry on many fronts. When he first heard my work he loved the language, phrasing and deep affinity for the blues that we share in common. Even though he knew that I was beyond busy at the time, he strongly suggested that I get in the studio and start recording daily, promising me that the results would be something special. It was also about that time that he sent me some of his favorite D'Andrea ProPlec picks to compare with the PickBoys I had been using for many years. Take a look:
I had settled on the vintage PickBoy jazz pick (left) after several years of experimenting, mainly because the tone is just killer, but I have to tell you that I was shocked to discover that HJ's pick (right - his name barely discernible due to wear) was also in that fat tone ball park, so I decided to use it for all of the recordings that I did over the next few months. Btw, both picks are on the heavier side (1.5mm), not unusual for jazz at all.
With that in mind, check out two of the studio recordings I did using that pick during the first couple of weeks. On the 300+ bpm uptempo front is the classic Impressions by John Coltrane. Note the Wes-style thumb-brushed octaves on the head followed by several solo choruses, many featuring Montgomery-like shifts as well as nods to GB, Martino and others.
On the considerably slower side (less than 100 bpm) is one of a number of solo tributes that I've done with George in mind. This is my two-chord vamp spin on This Masquerade from GB's epic Breezin' release. My goal has never been to play or sound exactly like GB, but to integrate what I admire most about him into my work (aka "The 5% Rule"). Hope you dig the tracks!
I'm with you 100 % on (jazz) language and blues. As you know, Herb is my guy and he oozed classic jazz language and blues. I know that's the most important thing, and that is what I spend most of my time on. (Well, tunes, language, and blues.)
I have some of those Pro-Plec picks. Ordered 'em in December of 2012 (-according to my Amazon account) but didn't stick with them. I don't now remember why. I'll dig 'em out and see how they suit what I'm doing now in terms of pick grip.
On another subject, Mark S, there are a few current threads on learning / practicing in general. (Howard Roberts' ideas, Thomas Sterner's "The Practicing Mind," and so on.) I'm sure you have things to add to those discussions---I hope you find time to chime in! You've brought so much to this Forum. I'm really glad you're here and I know a lot of other guys are too. You definitely walk the walk!
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I'm interested in hearing Mark Stefani's comments on this too. It seems that "3-finger players" (-for the most part) tend to shift along the neck rather than stretch much. Originally Posted by ecj
I think about this because I have some material from different players and it is all good but they don't finger the same way. For example, I like Carol Kaye and have some of her stuff and she doesn't finger lines the way Herb Ellis does. Neither is right nor wrong but I have begun to realize that **I** need to be consistent in how I play lines. Probably one of my biggest impediments to speed is inconsistency in how I finger lines.
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Evan, thanks for the kind words. I know that at times HJ and GB go a bit thinner, but generally not less than 1.25mm. One thing that Wolf and I share in common with them is that we do all of our respective practicing on un-amplified archtops. For Henry it's on his signature Heritage, for me it's on a first-year Ibanez GB10 and for Wolf it could be on any number of guitars, from his pair of '64 Gibson L5's to the new model that he's currently co-designing with D'Angelico to a Sadowsky. I think he also has a Heritage Kenny Burrell Super 400. My main archtop, primarily due to Kenny and my longtime admiration for his incredible tone, is the one used on those recordings. It's a 1970 Gibson S400. Originally Posted by ecj
The reason why I bring this up is that a thin pick (less than 1.00mm) sounds terrible on these guitars unless you're amplified, regardless of the way you pick. What I've found is that practicing un-amplified gives me more personal control over the tone and volume, and the result gets translated to whatever amp I use (or board/USB interface for recording). My friends have come to the same conclusion, something that we've discussed on many occasions.
With regards to your left hand thoughts, for the most part I would agree with you. Lots of shifts 'n slides a la Wes, not as many stretches and far less use of the 4th finger when it comes to playing bebop jazz lines. You just have to keep an open mind when it comes to technical approaches. For instance, in both the Impressions and This Masquerade solos I do make extensive use of the 4th finger as well as the shifts/slurs, yet there are times when I'll experiment using a 3-finger approach for a given lick or passage. To me it's all about hearing the language and phrasing, then finding a satisfying way to make it work. How it sounds in the long run is all that really counts.
Thanks, Mark. Speaking of Herb and Howard, both were very close friends of Mr. Marshall. Ellis was the first jazz guitarist that Wolf ever caught live, at Dante's down in SoCal so many years ago. Lots of cool stories to share, but you might be aware of the fact that it was Herb's famous black Gibson that Howard used for both Color Him Funky and HR's A Dirty Guitar Player. When Roberts passed, his wife gave that instrument to Wolf. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
With that in mind, here's a shot I took of Henry posing with that guitar when the three of us were together in SoCal several years ago:
Note the famous album photo of HR in the studio that Wolf is holding up behind Henry. Here's another vintage shot of Howard in the studio playing that same guitar:
Wolf scanned it along with the actual pick that Roberts was using at the time. It's a slightly over-sized version of the classic Gibson teardrop jazz pick that Wolf used for years before opting for the D'Andrea version. If you guys want to see more blasts from the past, including a shot of Pat Martino's famous ebony pick and an interesting story behind it, just let me know.
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I found my stash of Pro-Plec 1.5s today and the first thing I noticed when playing one is the difference in tone. I practice without plugging into an amp too. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
As for the pics of picks, I'd love to see more, but another thread might be a better place to display them. Lots of "pick junkies" hereabouts.
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Speaking of Wolf Marshall... he lives in my neck of the woods. I've chatted with him a few times. He is perhaps the most famous guitar transcriber there is. He's posted a fee videos on youtube.
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[QUOTE=fep;462096]Speaking of Wolf Marshall... he lives in my neck of the woods. I've chatted with him a few times. He is perhaps the most famous guitar transcriber there is. He's posted a few videos on youtube.
[ /QUOTE]
Thanks, fep. I'd never heard Wolf play---apart from the "signature licks" material of his that I have. That shows he really can play, of course, but I wondered how he would sound when he wasn't playing something he had transcribed!
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09-22-2014, 08:51 AM #841destinytot Guest
Re-posting a clip of playing with diferent picks (i) Fender Medium (on acoustic archtop), (ii) chord melody with Fender Thin; (ii) noodling with a Clayton 2mm, then with my thumb and back to Fender Thin. Feedback welcome.
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Like the tone of the 2mm Clayton. Closest to your fleshy thumb sound. The Fender Medium sounded awful on the acoustic to me ol' tin ears.
I have been practising with a 3.5mm Chicken Pick lately and find that it suits the nearly perpendicular to the strings style very well. I dare not call my style Benson picking. Who the f@@k am I?
The 3.5mm Chicken Pick has a bevel that feels much thinner than a 1.14mm Pitch Black Jazz III played perpendicular style.
I get the tone that I hear in my head and my speed and accuracy have gone up. Still not George Benson but trying.
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I'd never heard of a 3.5 mm Chicken Pick, so I Googled it. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Attachment 14774
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Understood, Mark. Many have wondered about that, which was one of the driving forces behind the JJG cover story interview that I did with Wolf back in 2006. I wanted to reveal his lifelong love for jazz music and his impressive skill as an improviser in this genre. Marshall is the epitome of "The 5% Rule" when it comes to his multiple influences across the board, including so many sax, trumpet and keyboard players. He is the ultimate authority in discussing jazz guitar, from its history to its players to their gear to.. well, you name it. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
With regards to picks, here's something that Wolf just sent me last week:
To the right is Pat Martino's ebony pick that he used on "The Visit" and other recordings during that time period. Having never seen it up close, Wolf decided to make his own from some ebony keys he had from purchasing a salvaged piano. On the left is the result, but shaped more like the Fender jazz teardrop that he's always preferred. Pat and Wolf have been close friends for decades, and Marshall has transcribed almost every solo that Martino has ever recorded. Pat gave him his pick, which sits in its own little glass enclosure.
One little piece of jazz guitar trivia that very few know: When Martino was recovering from his aneurism and relearning the instrument, he actually used Wolf's transcriptions in conjunction with his own recordings. It's a very unusual and unique case of a player giving something of priceless value back to one of his main mentors.
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That's an amazing story! I had no idea. Thanks for sharing that. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
Have you played with Wolf's ebony pick? I wonder how it feels---I've plunked a few ebony piano keys in my time (-my mom's a pianist) but I never thought about anyone using ebony to make a guitar pick...
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It is quite a story, but as you might well imagine it's just one of many given his history in this field. There's never been a guitarist as eclectic as Wolf Marshall, who is equally at home playing traditional blues, rock and jazz, not to mention his legit background in classical music. What other guitar player can play like B.B. King, Hendrix, Clapton, SRV, Van Halen, Vai and Satriani, then turn around and truly do justice to the jazz language, phrasing and tone of Wes, Martino, Pass, and so many others? I will always be indebted to Henry for introducing us years ago. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I've never tried his ebony pick, but I did have a chance to try Pat's and was amazed at how rough the surface was, as Wolf puts it "like an acorn that fell out of a tree." The one he made is very smooth and elegant, but nowadays he's using the D'Andrea version of what was the original Fender teardrop jazz pick. Again, tone is the main reason.
Incidentally, my first influence when it came to pick approach was via SF Bay Area jazz guitar legend Eddie Duran, who just turned 89 years old. Eddie and his two brothers, Manny and Carlo, formed the rhythm section behind my dad and my mom (vocalist) in a popular quintet that played many of the top hotel venues back in the day, several years before I was born. Duran also recorded a number of albums with Vince Guaraldi (my wife's cousin), Cal Tjader and others. Earl Hines would always hire Eddie and my dad whenever he came to town.
When I was getting into jazz I used to catch Eddie performing at local clubs, often with Tom Coster on keys. Eddie is from the Wes school with regards to the right-hand thumb, but in doing the Latin stuff he would do fingerstyle work while hiding this tiny pick (a standard Fender cut in half) in the first joint of his index finger. He was like Houdini the way he would instantly switch from one approach to the other. I spent many years perfecting that method, even getting to the point where I could finally use the same finger hiding the pick for complex work with my fingers. It's a key reason why Benson picking doesn't work effectively for my needs.
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This reminds me of something from a Joe Pass interview: Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
>>>Regardless of the guitar, do you always use the same kind of pick?
Always the same kind. It's half a pick really, a pick broken in two. It's a medium-thin gauge, not soft, but firm. But I use my fingers a great deal too; and pick and fingers, or thumb and fingers. It's not quite as fast with the fingers though.<<<<
He talked about this "half a pick" in (I think) "Joe Pass on Guitar," a book / CD. (It might be a DVD too.)
I wondered about this and cut few picks in half but it was hard (for me) to get a good balance, so I just gave it up. Since you know someone who did, how did Eddie cut his picks in half?
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Is there a higher res version of this? I think it would be cool to read the names underneath the picks. For 20 yrs I used the Gibson pick, 6th down on the left. They stopped making them quite a while ago. Originally Posted by 3625
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See new thread under Guitar, Amps & Gizmo's. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I never witnessed Eddie actually making his picks. His were a little too small for me anyway, probably due to our difference in hand size. Here's a pair of my ancient homemade picks sandwiched between the PickBoys I use nowadays: Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I used a heavy duty pair of scissors to remove the top third of a standard Fender pick, then filed the edge and the surface to both smooth out the perimeter while making it easier to grip. Finally I used a single paper punch to add a hole so that the pick wouldn't rotate. In the long run even these were a little too small for me. The PickBoys are great because they're smaller than a standard Fender but (as you can see) larger than the ones I'd made. Plus like Henry's ProPlecs they simply have a superior tone.
Speaking of which, if you'd like to hear the tone of the PB's in an original, groove-based context, check out this sneak preview of Turn Up the Heat, the title track for an upcoming release. Nothing blistering fast, but you'll hear the artistic influences and phrasing from the likes of GB, Wes and Tom Scott (sax) on this one.
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