Barry Harris, interesting, but...

[boognish23]

Wazoo, love those arrangements!

I just picked up the Keystone book this weekend. It made my head explode in the best possible way. I'm definitely on the beginner end of jazz guitar, but from my novice eyes, Harris's approach is like Maxwell's equations for jazz. Just running through the chord/scales sounds better than any comping I've been able to do up to this point. I can't wait to have these in my ears, under my fingers and worked into some tunes. Fun stuff.

[MarkRhodes]

diminished chords are chords of movement--this is a great substitute for the vanilla Conti chords you probably have learned. all you have to do is learn your sixth chord in root and inversion positions, the ii, IV, #V etc are harmonzed by a dim chords. Plus you can add borrowed notes from each dom7 associated with the dim chord.

Well, Conti's chords are not vanilla. His first lesson on dominant chords has 21 voicings---that's quite an arsenal!

I hear the Harris approach as being more rhythmically driven, which is good. (Conti plays chord melody solo and comes from the Johnny Smith school, so he likes to play a different chord voicing for every melody note, which creates a lush sound more than a driving one.) I like to play some swing tunes and sing them, so I want more forceful rhythmic parts (not to mention walking bass lines) and less busy chord melodies. I think the Harris approach is good for that. I've definitely got to pursue this.

It's fun to just play the G6 chords / inversions with diminished chords in between them. But I don't even have them down yet with sixth string roots (low E), let alone all the other voicings. Gonna take some time...

[A. Kingstone]

...............................

It's fun to just play the G6 chords / inversions with diminished chords in between them. But I don't even have them down yet with sixth string roots (low E), let alone all the other voicings. Gonna take some time...

Mark. Try Drop 3 for the 6 string root.

Those were among the first I learned.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark. Try Drop 3 for the 6 string root.

Those were among the first I learned.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I love those voicings. Then I'll do them with the 5 string root.

Starting with G6 for the (low) E string root and will start with C6 for the A string root. I love the movement you get just moving those chords around.

[A. Kingstone]

…………. C6 for the A string root. I love the movement you get just moving those chords around.

This root position is a tough one for me to play.

For C A E G (off the A string) it makes sense to use fingers 2 1 4 3.

If I play it verbatim (not likely in a playing situation) I find 3 1 4 2 more comfortable, down low at least.

Thanks for moderating. I enjoy your posts.

[MarkRhodes]

This root position is a tough one for me to play.

For C A E G (off the A string) it makes sense to use fingers 2 1 4 3.

If I play it verbatim (not likely in a playing situation) I find 3 1 4 2 more comfortable, down low at least.

Thanks for moderating. I enjoy your posts.

O, I know! It's brutal. I start further up the neck and work my way back down. Sometimes I play the first C6 shape I learned, playing the C note on both the B and A strings. Not as full a chord, I know, but if you have to drop one tone of a chord, the 5th is a good choice.... )

[NSJ]

I would practice the shit out of moving the chords quickly in the circle fourths or circle of fifths.

For example, using the drop three with the fifth string root--you can go from C6 to F6 the B-flat 6 to Eb6 pretty much all in the fifth position ( okay, you have to go up to the sixth position to play the Bb6, but the other three are all played in the fifth position). Playing these four chords in such a way will force one to utilize all for fingerings for the drop three with the fifth string root.

C6---3rd in the bass (3156)
F6--6 in the bass (6513)
Bb6 --5 in the bass (5361)
Eb6 1 in the bass (1635)

EDIT--by the way, if you switch (transfer) to a drop three with the six string root after the sequence above, you can do all 12 chords that correspond to the circle of 4ths (C6 to G6) basically between position three and position seven. Seven would be for G flat six, and position three would be for D6, but most of the chords can be found between position four and position six.

[MarkRhodes]

I would practice the shit out of moving the chords quickly in the circle fourths or circle of fifths.

Thanks. That's a good idea. I've been doing that with a Barry Galbraith cycle of dominants exercise. (A13, D13, G7, C7, F7 in fifth position, then you move to the sixth for Bb13, Eb13, and so on.) But those are different fingerings. So yeah, I have to get on this too....

[destinytot]

Hurray! Alan Kingstone's The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar arrived in today's post.

[MarkRhodes]

Hurray! Alan Kingstone's The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar arrived in today's post.

Goody goody! That's on my wish list.

[docbop]

After reading this I finally broke down and ordered the 2nd set of Barry Harris DVD's and got the shipping confirmation. So should be here next week. It's will be cool to hear about this from the Harris himself.

[NSJ]

To be honest, I'm pretty much done with new material in terms of books or instructional DVDs. Except to the extent they explicitly deal with specific aspects of rhythm and swing. I watched Mike Longo's video on the topic of syncopation and playing like a drummer. But I found a bit confusing. I would be very much interested to see to what extent Barry Harris deals with this topic: rhythm and swing. And if he does, what are his central contributions on the subject.

we have mouth mountains of "what note over what chord" stuff. But hardly anything on the most important aspect of this music.

[destinytot]

After reading this I finally broke down and ordered the 2nd set of Barry Harris DVD's and got the shipping confirmation. So should be here next week. It's will be cool to hear about this from the Harris himself.

I bought both workshop videos when they came out on DVD, but I didn't work with them much because I was unable to follow all the content at the time. I used to be incapable of naming all the notes I play and lacked a frame of reference for working with these ideas. That no longer being the case, I've started using them this week. Part 1 is great, but Part 2 is 'the business' - and, after watching more closely, I have to say we are very lucky indeed to have Alan Kingstone participating here.

[destinytot]

To be honest, I'm pretty much done with new material in terms of books or instructional DVDs. Except to the extent they explicitly deal with specific aspects of rhythm and swing. I watched Mike Longo's video on the topic of syncopation and playing like a drummer. But I found a bit confusing. I would be very much interested to see to what extent Barry Harris deals with this topic: rhythm and swing. And if he does, what are his central contributions on the subject.

we have mouth mountains of "what note over what chord" stuff. But hardly anything on the most important aspect of this music.

Barry Harris addresses this in his response to a drummer's question from 30:00 to 33:00 on a video shared previously Barry Harris' speech in Almeria - Spain | BELIEVE

but his workshop videos go further by applying phrasing in six on several standards. Then there's added notes to scales.

[ColinO]

This root position is a tough one for me to play.

For C A E G (off the A string) it makes sense to use fingers 2 1 4 3.

If I play it verbatim (not likely in a playing situation) I find 3 1 4 2 more comfortable, down low at least.

Thanks for moderating. I enjoy your posts.

I just bought the book and think I am going to really like it. Thanks. I can't play that grip. Never mind "keep trying" - I can't play it. Instead I use x3225x for that C6 - if God had intended me to play the G, then he would have given me another finger or two.

Alan I've just started into this but can I ask - why are you asking me to convert m7 chords into relative 6th chords? If I just use the m7 + the dim chord, it does the same thing and with less thinking(which I like). is it to get to the 5-6 on the minor thing?

Cheers Alan.

[docbop]

I just bought the book and think I am going to really like it. Thanks. I can't play that grip. Never mind "keep trying" - I can't play it. Instead I use x3225x for that C6 - if God had intended me to play the G, then he would have given me another finger or two.

Alan I've just started into this but can I ask - why are you asking me to convert m7 chords into relative 6th chords? If I just use the m7 + the dim chord, it does the same thing and with less thinking(which I like). is it to get to the 5-6 on the minor thing?

Cheers Alan.

You talking about the C6 on page 6? Doesn't take long to get used to, it's like a C dim but put a extra fret in.

At this point instead of asking "why" better to look at the relationships especially as you move forward. For me that was the key is see how all these chords are related.

[ColinO]

Thanks docbop. On the "why" question, I will study that and thanks for the advice.

On the C6, I'll keep trying but my fingers must tell you that they are currently strenuously objecting. No pain no gain I guess.

[docbop]

Thanks docbop. On the "why" question, I will study that and thanks for the advice.

On the C6, I'll keep trying but my fingers must tell you that they are currently strenuously objecting. No pain no gain I guess.

It's like going to the gym and learning a new exercise, it takes awhile to get comfortable with.

[A. Kingstone]

…………...- why are you asking me to convert m7 chords into relative 6th chords? If I just use the m7 + the dim chord, it does the same thing and with less thinking(which I like). is it to get to the 5-6 on the minor thing?

Cheers Alan.

I've heard Barry suggest that very thing. That perhaps someone is teaching a 'Minor Seventh Diminished' scale somewhere.

Whatever works to get you moving. It sounds as though you've already done the conversion programming (6th = m7 that we already know).

Mike & Doc & Colin, I hope you get a lifetime of satisfaction from Barry's amazingly simple though vast theory.

A

[MarkRhodes]

Someone told me to pick out a few things for an early Christmas present and I opted for Roni Ben-Hur's book "Talk Jazz Guitar" and the "Chorability" CD. Wish me luck!

(I notice Amazon has no copies of A. Kingstone's book in stock. I hope that is soon remedied; I still want that book too....)

Here's a link to Roni's "Talk Jazz Gutar" at Amazon.

Mel Bay Talk Jazz Guitar (Book/Cd Set): Roni Ben-Hur: 9780974494326: Amazon.com: Books

(For the record, I did not order this from Amazon. They're USED price is $49.90. But you can 'look inside' the book here.)

I ordered from Jazz Corner. Here's a link to Roni's site. if you click on the Books/DVDs link (right hand side) you can find out more about "Talk Jazz Guitar", hear some audio samples and see a few pdfs too.

Here's the blurb:
TALK JAZZ, by Roni Ben-Hur, is a collection of musical excerpts, exercises and ideas incorporating jazz motifs and improvisational concepts designed to familiarize students and music professionals, at any level, with jazz vocabulary and music theory. Derived from the teaching methods of his long time colleague, jazz piano legend and educator, Barry Harris, TALK JAZZ is now distributed internationally. This intuitive guide is receiving wide acclaim for its innovative approach, comprehensive substance and play-along CD and three editions.

Welcome To Roni Ben-Hur's Website

[dasein]

question for Alan...

in your book you talk about 4 scales:

- Sixth Diminished
- Minor Sixth Diminished
- Seventh Diminished
- Seventh Flat 5 Diminished

the first two scales are covered in great detail, but i don't recall seeing anything about the last two, and i don't really remember Barry talking about them much, either.

any insight into how Barry uses or thinks about these scales?

[P4guitar]

Can someone point me to a guitarist besides Ben-Hur who uses this system?

[MarkRhodes]

Can someone point me to a guitarist besides Ben-Hur who uses this system?

Uh, Alan Kingstone, a member of this forum! ;o)

[dasein]

Can someone point me to a guitarist besides Ben-Hur who uses this system?

[P4guitar]

I can't find any clips of Kingstone. Grasso uses the Harris approach to improv? Can someone point me to a source for his musical foundation?

I've been interested in this thread as I owned at one time the first BH dvd/book set (can't find it now). Back then I was hoping for new insight into improv approaches but other than (re)discovering the joy of the pure sixth chord I got little out of the material other than the concept of cycling to the fifth and back during static periods. Anyway the trad chord/scale system gave me plenty of voicings so I couldn't see how the BH system provided anything new the palette - but that's probably my shortsightedness as I dig Barry's playing.

I tune in 4ths so the basic Harris chords for major and minor are pretty easy to learn and reasonably easy to finger all over the neck but the application stymies me.