Is Music Theory Useless?

[brwnhornet59]

When my friend and I spoke with him, we were astonished to hear that he could not tell us what key he was in or anything about theory. Note: he conducted himself as a gentleman and did not get defensive, he was actually apologetic.

But I noticed he could transpose and if you hummed a note, he would locate it and then play in that key.

I learned to play that way in the 70's. A great guitarist, Gary Wenzel from Reading Pa, took me under his wing for a few lessons and taught me drop 3 chords and their inversions on the low E string, in 79. He also set me on the path to basic theory, modes and circle of 5ths, that I never forgot. In the late 80's I was fortunate to study with an AIM grad for 6 months. He opened many more doors for me as well. Then I stopped playing in 96. But both of these guys teachings stuck with me. So when I started playing again in April, it was a lot easier remembering what to practice etc.. Then between Matt Warnock and Morten Faerstrand, and of course this forum with all of it's fine members, I have grown exponentially.

But again knowing theory and how to apply it, is a must for any serious player that wants to grow and be able to play wherever, however and whatever they want. IMHO

[Nuff Said]

But again knowing theory and how to apply it, is a must for any serious player that wants to grow and be able to play wherever, however and whatever they want. IMHO

Total agreement.

[fep]

I know! Yeah, there are people that do have this NATURAL ability, to take what they know and build on it, by their own talents and ears. I think natural ability is a gift and offers the recipient a source of enjoyment not readily available to most.

+1

It might seem to make sense to try to learn the same way as a talented guitarist that you really admire. But if their talent is through the roof, and yours is not (like me), then how they learned just might not work for you.

Just because someone is a great player doesn't make them a great teacher. And their great playing may give them some unwarranted credibility as a teacher. The experience that I had that illustrated this for me was...


wait for it



wait still










Joe Pass!

[brwnhornet59]

+1

But if their talent is through the roof, and yours is not (like me), then how they learned just might not work for you.

Agreed. We are all different and learn in different ways and paces. Some are lucky enough to be around the right people when young or in their formative years. I grew up in a small area with very little to offer in way of great musicians. The few that were there guarded their secrets like it was knowledge of the end of the world. Even when paying for lessons, very few would share anything past the basics.

I think the equalizer that helps us all be able to communicate, regardless of innate talent or prowess or overall level of musicianship, is theory. Without this music is an arcane language. We might as well be at the tower of babble. But with the internet in an age of mass communication all things are possible to those that seek it.

Wow Frank, you studied with Joe? Normally I would say cool, but in lieu of your words I have to ask, was it not enlightening?

[fep]

Wow Frank, you studied with Joe? Normally I would say cool, but in lieu of your words I have to ask, was it not enlightening?

Back in the 1980s Joe Pass played frequently in a small bar/restaurant in San Diego. I got to see him several times, those where good 'lessons'.

He did a master class at a San Diego music store. I went to that, there was maybe 6 of us that attended that class. Joe had nothing prepared and as far as I could tell hadn't even thought of what he was going to cover. It seemed he had just gotten out of bed and drove to the music store, grabbed some coffee and.. He said, "I'll play some tunes and then you can ask me some questions". That format just didn't work for me at that time. Perhaps it would work well for others?

It was worthwhile though, I got to see Joe play up close and personal.

[brwnhornet59]

Well, I would have loved to seen him up close and personal, but I would have been very unhappy, as you were, if he just played some tunes and did not share any knowledge that would be helpful to an aspiring musician.

Was it expensive?

[AlsoRan]

I think the equalizer that helps us all be able to communicate, regardless of innate talent or prowess or overall level of musicianship, is theory.

I think you hit it on the head.

Theory, the great equalizer! Properly learned and applied, it can unlock the door and open the kingdom of music up to no-talent, simple peasants like me.

[reventlov]

I can't identify at all with 'I'm not learning any theory, it's useless to me' because until you have actually learned and understood it, how can you possibly know whether or not it is of any use to you? Anyone who consciously turns his back on acquiring a body of knowledge about his art probably isn't playing with a full deck.

Learn all the theory you can, as thoroughly as you can, then when you're actually playing, don't think about it. The knowledge will still be in your head, subconsciously informing your inner ear and making your playing more musical. You have to make knowledge your tool, not your master.

[TH]

Back in the 1980s Joe Pass played frequently in a small bar/restaurant in San Diego. I got to see him several times, those where good 'lessons'.

He did a master class at a San Diego music store. I went to that, there was maybe 6 of us that attended that class. Joe had nothing prepared and as far as I could tell hadn't even thought of what he was going to cover. It seemed he had just gotten out of bed and drove to the music store, grabbed some coffee and.. He said, "I'll play some tunes and then you can ask me some questions". That format just didn't work for me at that time. Perhaps it would work well for others?

It was worthwhile though, I got to see Joe play up close and personal.

Ha ha! That's a great story and so true to Joe. Once he was playing in Cambridge, MA. just down the street from Berklee College of Music. There were obviously a lot of guitarists in the audience and he was chatting up the crowd that was hanging on his every note. He was talking with people as he was settling in, tuning up and getting comfortable. Then he began by saying "A lot of you are guitarists. I know you're here to steal my licks..." and he proceeded to take a cloth napkin, cover up his left hand and play his first tune, hand covered, so fast nobody would've been able to see it anyway. He was a riot.

David

[paynow]

Ha ha! That's a great story and so true to Joe. Once he was playing in Cambridge, MA. just down the street from Berklee College of Music. There were obviously a lot of guitarists in the audience and he was chatting up the crowd that was hanging on his every note. He was talking with people as he was settling in, tuning up and getting comfortable. Then he began by saying "A lot of you are guitarists. I know you're here to steal my licks..." and he proceeded to take a cloth napkin, cover up his left hand and play his first tune, hand covered, so fast nobody would've been able to see it anyway. He was a riot.

David

I saw Joe play in 1985 at "Fat Tuesdays," a club in NYC which has long since closed. His album "Whitestone" had just come out. During the break he had someone get on the mic and say "Joe will be taking a break now, please be sure to buy his new record as he needs money for airfare back to Los Angeles." I bought a copy, which he autographed.

At the beginning of his first set, upon noticing there were a lot of young guys in the room, he says "You all must be guitar players," which most of us were, then goes on to say that all we care about is who can play fast; "Young guys always come up to me and say, hey Joe, did you here that guy up in Yonkers? He's FAST. Well, I'm now going to spend the next five minutes playing as fast as I can." Which he did, to rhythm changes. And you never lost the harmony. He was hilarious, sitting up there puffing on a cigar while he played (you used to be allowed to do that).

Every lesson I've ever seen with JP seems to indicate simplifying theory rather than over complicating it. But, he has that sort of teaching style that comes across as "Sure, you can do this, it's easy" though it's not so easy for us mere mortals. Sort of like taking a lesson on how to hit a curve ball from Joe DiMaggio. Definitely a guy who wanted to cut right through the BS (who's the fastest, too much focus on theory) and get right to playing.

[jbear]

Ah, but the man or woman's original point is that he just wants to play right now. He is not into arranging or composing. He is choosing to follow the example of those guitarists that just learned by playing and memorizing.

I met a guy in a Guitar Center who was playing some great Jazz, chord melody / solo guitar type. When my friend and I spoke with him, we were astonished to hear that he could not tell us what key he was in or anything about theory. Note: he conducted himself as a gentleman and did not get defensive, he was actually apologetic.

But I noticed he could transpose and if you hummed a note, he would locate it and then play in that key.

My guess is that to learn this way, you need to have plenty of time on your hands (which many adults don't have) and be blessed with the special aptitude to learn and retain.

I'll stick with theory.

That's me! It's not totally by choice though. I have a learning disability and math/spacial relationships are exceptionally difficult for me. It's ironic because my degrees are in science and I teach biology. Having this issue really helps me as a teacher because I've developed strategies for myself, and I've learned not to give up! Add to that my passions are music and photography, both of which require a blend of "feel," technique, and theoretical knowledge. I have the "feel" and technique, but always struggle with the theory.
Every week in my lesson, I sit and listen and try sooooo hard to process what my teacher is explaining, but... I do not give up though, because I am not content with "You guys start and I'll find you." or "Dude! That was amazing! Play that again." "Ummm, I don't know what I did exactly...I'll try." I want to go farther than that, and some of the cats I am influenced by are playing such harmonically complex stuff that I'm not going to get there by ear.
I do get to play a lot of what I dig by just closing my eyes and playing, but...I could open another world if I could get my brain to process the theory.
So...I don't need theory to enjoy playing or listening, but I know that there's a whole universe of music out there that I could be part of if...when I finally "get it."
Ultimately, it's music...if you can be happy without theory...it ain't no thang. I can, but...I could be different happy with it.
On that note (sorry), if anyone has any experience with strategies that work for people like me...I'd be ever so grateful!

[AlsoRan]

That's me! It's not totally by choice though. I have a learning disability and math/spacial relationships are exceptionally difficult for me. It's ironic because my degrees are in science and I teach biology. Having this issue really helps me as a teacher because I've developed strategies for myself, and I've learned not to give up!

Very intriguing. Not to hijack the thread (well, I guess it has already been ransacked!) , but I love meeting individuals with brains that work out of the ordinary.

They have such interesting stories of how as youths, the education system labeled them as mentally deficient when they were anything but! We all have to figure out what is best for us when it comes to learning, and may even need to figure out a way to translate what a teacher or book is saying into ideas that we can process. I was kind of like that. I would create my own way/system of doing things in some of the harder courses I have taken in high school and college, as well as in the workplace.

This forum really helps fill in the gaps in the plethora of music information that is out there and in our own experiences.

[jbear]

Yeah...it make you really understand the concept of "individualizing" the way we facilitate learning. I never tell a kid, "It's easy...you just...". For some of us, in certain applications, there is no, "you just..."
That's one of the rewarding aspects of teaching for me...helping kids who think that they can't do something to find a way. That's what I had to do. Desire goes a long way!
Now...about these modes...

[Dark Star]

I have also heard from more than one person that Joe was a great player & gracious person but a poor teacher.
But I have decided to ditch theory as well. I don't want to be another egg-head jazz guitarist.
Just the other night at a rehearsal, the keyboard player asked me, "What chord was that you just played?" I said, "It's the one where my pointer finger goes all the way across the neck to fret three stings at once, but not all the strings are played. Then I put my middle finger over on the low string a fret higher than the first finger & kind of touch the fifth string so it doesn't play. Then I kind of scrunch my third finger under my first finger to fret a note above the one my first finger is fretting. I don't know which one it is. Got it?" He was frustrated but he's going to have to get used to it. I finally told him, "Just feel it, ok?"

[ten left thumbs]

You see, i wouldn't want to play with someone who didn't even try to communicate with me. I would take your answer as unhelpful and a bit patronising (implying I can't feel). I might have had a good reason for wanting to know.

Playing in a group, you need to play together.

[TH]

I have also heard from more than one person that Joe was a great player & gracious person but a poor teacher.
But I have decided to ditch theory as well. I don't want to be another egg-head jazz guitarist.
Just the other night at a rehearsal, the keyboard player asked me, "What chord was that you just played?" I said, "It's the one where my pointer finger goes all the way across the neck to fret three stings at once, but not all the strings are played. Then I put my middle finger over on the low string a fret higher than the first finger & kind of touch the fifth string so it doesn't play. Then I kind of scrunch my third finger under my first finger to fret a note above the one my first finger is fretting. I don't know which one it is. Got it?" He was frustrated but he's going to have to get used to it. I finally told him, "Just feel it, ok?"

I've learned that to get away with that kind of FK U attitude, you have to be really good. REALLY good. And in general it takes a lot of theory and hard work to get there.
But then again I'm not sure that you're not pulling all our legs here. Hold on... I'm afraid of theory because it will turn my head into an egg...
Hold on...
OH! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!
Dark Star You're a RIOT!!!!
David

[Dark Star]

[Jazzaluk]

Some people can apply concepts they cannot explain (creators),
Some can explain concepts they cannot apply (theorists).
Some people refuse to apply concepts that they can't explain. (nerds).

You know who you are!

[strumcat]

There's a parallel to this in language. You can study English for years, know every nuance of grammer, punctuation, usage, and vocabulary... and still have absolutely nothing interesting, moving, or important to say. But... if you do have something to say, learning these things can help you to say it better and broaden your range. Likewise, I think that proficiency in music theory and physical skill can make a person a competent performer, if not an artist. But if you are an artist, I think it can make you a better one. If nothing else, it at least facilitates communication with other musicians, and that can only be a good thing.

[reventlov]

^^^^^^^ good post strumcat

[TH]

There's a parallel to this in language. ... if you are an artist, I think it can make you a better one. If nothing else, it at least facilitates communication ...

Ah, but there is an implication that everyone wants to be an articulate artist.

I don't want to be another egg-head jazz guitarist.
... I don't know which one it is. Got it?" ok?"

Not always the case.
David

[strumcat]

Ah, but there is an implication that everyone wants to be an articulate artist.

Good point. Becoming a good performer or just studying music theory for its own sake -- to teach, or just because it interests you -- are great goals in themselves. (I was actually going to add that, but I'm using a cellphone with a bad touchscreen...)

reventlov... TY

[bretkills]

To Established a common language, so that musicians are more likely to communicate with each other. Then you have such a genius like Bireli get together NHOP and Andre Cecarelli, they just play. At this point, there are so many musicians experience, theory into redundant.I English grammar and music theory. Clearly express their knowledge or lack of knowledge of grammar dosn't maintain a year-old.

[mike walker]

Just the other night at a rehearsal, the keyboard player asked me, "What chord was that you just played?" I said, "It's the one where my pointer finger goes all the way across the neck to fret three stings at once, but not all the strings are played. Then I put my middle finger over on the low string a fret higher than the first finger & kind of touch the fifth string so it doesn't play. Then I kind of scrunch my third finger under my first finger to fret a note above the one my first finger is fretting. I don't know which one it is. Got it?" He was frustrated but he's going to have to get used to it. I finally told him, "Just feel it, ok?"

As opposed to, 'a Bb7, mate'............

[Dark Star]

lol!