basic question about jazz chords

[CarolM]

Hi, I'm studying theory but also am always working on tunes, so I do a lot of research trying to find the right voicings for the music. That takes me well ahead of my current knowledge...

Anyway, why does music specify 13th notation instead of 6th? Is it because that amount of distance between the notes is wanted, or the 13th is wanted on top (if so what about inversions), or because it also implies dom 7th is included...just wondering.

Sometimes I see a voicing with the key note way up where I can't hardly reach it, when I could do it an octave down, like I saw that with a Cmaj9 with the 9th way up on the 1st string.

[pingu]

Anyway, why does music specify 13th notation instead of 6th? Is it because
that amount of distance between the notes is wanted, or the 13th is wanted on
top (if so what about inversions), or because it also implies dom 7th is
included...just wondering.

a full on 13 chord is a Dominant type chord
and has 1 3 5 b7 9 11 and the 13th in it
not enough strings eh ?
luckily we can leave out lots of these notes and still create a good effect
it depends on the context of the tune and youre taste as to what you leave out

[fep]

Yes, the chord symbol G13 is a dominant 7th chord quality...

G B D F A E (normally the 11th is omitted and often the ninth is ommited also to make it G B D F E, and often the 5th is ommited as in G B F A E)

A 6th chord is a major chord with a 6th added, G6 = G B D E

Do the Amazon 'Look Inside' feature of this book, it has a good three page explanation of chord spellings:

Amazon.com: Joe Pass Guitar Style (9780739018651): Joe Pass: Books

[CarolM]

Originally Posted by fep

Yes, the chord symbol G13 is a dominant 7th chord quality...

G B D F A E (normally the 11th is omitted and often the ninth is ommited also to make it G B D F E, and often the 5th is ommited as in G B F A E)

A 6th chord is a major chord with a 6th added, G6 = G B D E

Do the Amazon 'Look Inside' feature of this book, it has a good three page explanation of chord spellings:

Amazon.com: Joe Pass Guitar Style (9780739018651): Joe Pass: Books

oh, that's a great chart in there.

I see I was getting the chord mixed up with the interval.

[brwnhornet59]

Go to m78w's site. It is a wealth of knowledge. Make sure that you look at all of his other voicing's besides this link.

Jazz Guitar Chords: 3 to 7 Triads | MattWarnockGuitar.com

Here's the link

[pierre richard]

the joe pass chord book is a great one to go through...

less theory and more applied ...play first-analyze later..

time on the instrument..pierre

[CarolM]

What I thought up to now was that a 13th was just a major triad with a 13th slapped on it. But it's packed full of other stuff, too, though books I've seen up to know don't come out and say it. It was only working through some of the chord reduction exercises in a swing rhythm book that made me wonder, why a dom 7th would work in place of a 13th.

I've bought so many books already, now there's more? lol

[brwnhornet59]

A 13th chord is a Dom7 with the 6th added.

[billkath]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

A 13th chord is a Dom7 with the 6th added.

And a 2nd, and a 4th.

Otherwise it'd be a dom7/6 --no?

[brwnhornet59]

You can technically add the 9th, 11th as well as the 13th. But any one of those three is enough to call it a 9th, 11th, 13th chord in conjunction with the Dom 7. The reason that this chord is called a 13th is because of the presence of the b7th. That is all. If the b7th was not present, then it would be a 6 chord. The same holds true with the 2/9, 4/11, it all depends on the b7th as to what it is called. Remember there is a Major 7th as well. Meaning you can have a Major 9th, Major 11th, Major 13th. That is the name when a Major 7th is present. Make sense?

[fep]

The 11th is almost always omitted on a 13th chord. It's true we don't have enough strings/fingers but more importantly it generally changes the quality of the chord to sound like a sus4 chord.

If I was writing a chart and wanted the 4th (11th) and the 13th I would us the chord symbol F13sus4 like the chord near the end of 'A Child is Born'; and this chord would have no 3rd.

Also note that the third is omitted from most 11th chords, that's the sound most of us associate with an 11th chord.

[brwnhornet59]

Fep is right of course. However I have a certain affinity to several #11 sounds that include the 3rd. See if you like them to.

AMaj7 #11

||---|---|---|-1--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|----|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|----|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
|o|--|---|---|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|




AMaj 7 #11

5th fret
||---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|o|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|




Amaj7 #11
|o|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--|
||-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|o|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|




AMaj7 #11


|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|--|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[billkath]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

You can technically add the 9th, 11th as well as the 13th. But any one of those three is enough to call it a 9th, 11th, 13th chord in conjunction with the Dom 7. The reason that this chord is called a 13th is because of the presence of the 7th. That is all. If the 7th was not present, then it would be a 6 chord. The same holds true with the 2/9, 4/11, it all depends on the 7th as to what it is called. Remember there is a Major 7th as well. Meaning you can have a Major 9th, Major 11th, Major 13th. That is the name when a Major 7th is present. Make sense?

I do see what you mean-honestly. What I'm saying, though, is that a dominant 13th is more than just a dom7 with a 6. It IS that-but it's MORE than that too. What I mean by that is not in theory, but in practice-do you follow? What I'm saying is that-if you had to play a G13 you could include in your voicing any combination of the 1,3,5, b7, 9, 11 and 13, as long as it included the b7 (to get the dominant flavour) and the 6 (to get the 13th/6th flavour). I'm just talking about from a practical point of view-A "How can I construct a dom13 chord on the guitar at this point on the fretboard". See what I mean?

Like, for a G13----D string 3rd fret-G string 4th fret, B string 5th fret, E string 5th fret. Giving you the b7,3,13,and 9 (F,B,E,A).

See-the question is "why 13, and not 6th", to which I always answer that, in theory, a 13th is constructed 1,3,5,b7,9,11,13--stacking 3rds. And as Fep says- a 6 chord is including a 6 note in a triad- which is different.

Am I wrong?

[fep]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Fep is right of course. However I have a certain affinity to several #11 sounds that include the 3rd. See if you like them to.

+1. I really like those chords also, even though never and always are nonmusical terms, a #11 should always have a third... at least someone in the band should play it.

[brwnhornet59]

Agreed Fep. However i will play #11 like a sus#4 as well. But the 3rd should always be there, (Bass etc..).


Bill, Sure, that's one way to do it. You are spelling a rootless, (no G), inversion. It will work functionally fine. Is this what you are looking for?

Remember, efficient movement is best. So rather than try and throw every note possible, go with the least. 1, 3, 5, b7, 13 will do it, but it is not hard throwing in the 9.

G 13 This includes the root, 7, 3, 13, 9. In that order

||---|---|----|---|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|----|---|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|----|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[brwnhornet59]

Also






G13 Root , 3, 7, 13, 9

8th fret
||---|----|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|---|---|-|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by billkath

See-the question is "why 13, and not 6th", to which I always answer that, in theory, a 13th is constructed 1,3,5,b7,9,11,13--stacking 3rds. And as Fep says- a 6 chord is including a 6 note in a triad- which is different.

Am I wrong?

The absence of the 7th makes the difference. In the key of C, G7 is the V7. F is the b7 of G7. If you are just spelling 1,3,5,6. It is a 6 chord. If you throw the b7 in it becomes a 13th. So you need to at least have, 1, 3, 5, b7, 13 in it. But as was established adding the 9th as well is the norm. We just run out of fingers. That is why Fep said that if you threw all of the notes into the chord, you would end up suspending the 3rd up to the 4th. The 4th is the 11th. So the 3rd leaves the chord. Make sense?

[billkath]

No-I'm fine -it was Carol I was worrying about. I was worried that if she just read your answer --"A 13th chord is a Dom7 with the 6th added" --to her post it might confuse her, or not enlighten her to the way a 13th is constructed in theory, and how it can be practically be voiced on the guitar. The 4 note rootless inversion example I gave might not come to mind in a learner if they just looked at a 13 chord purely as a dom7 with a 6th added-even though I know what you mean.

[brwnhornet59]

Also Bill, if you notice your Rootless inversion, F B E A, is an exact image of my example #3 for a Maj7#11. In this case it is FMaj7#11. See it? Here that tritone? It sounds so cool. Yet you were spelling out a G13 with no root.

Now we start talking about triad pairing to get these extended sounds. Great stuff!!!

[CarolM]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Also

G13 Root , 3, 7, 13, 9

8th fret
||---|----|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|---|---|-|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

that's exactly the voicing that brought on my question...I need that for a song, C13 I think, but I didn't like the way the 1st string note sounded - that's an E, right? - and wondered why not play it an octave down on the 3rd string. But it looks like that wipes out the dom 7th? [ sorry it's early and I don't know the upper neck that well yet.]

[fep]

Originally Posted by CarolM

that's exactly the voicing that brought on my question...I need that for a song, C13 I think, but I didn't like the way the 1st string note sounded - that's an E, right? - and wondered why not play it an octave down on the 3rd string. But it looks like that wipes out the dom 7th? [ sorry it's early and I don't know the upper neck that well yet.]

13th down an octave: 1st one is b7 3 13 1, 2nd one is 1 b7 3 13:


----x-------------x----------------------------
----8-------------5----------------------------
----9-------------4----------------------------
----9-------------3----------------------------
----8-------------x----------------------------
----x-------------3----------------------------

[brwnhornet59]

You can play the chord any way that your ear accepts. But by taking the b7 out and moving the 6th down an octave, it becomes a 6/9 chord. Nothing wrong with that. It is still implying the right idea. There are no wrong chords when it comes to what your ears like. Dropping the b7 will hurt nothing. You do lose some tension, but the world will still keep spinning. =)

[Reg]

You guys need to be a little careful if you start using these versions of notation off this sight... There are standard implications from notation... not just what we want. The reason we notate changes is to give information as to what's going on harmonically. Rarely does a chord symbol simply mean a voicing, voice leading or only one chord. When we want a specific voicing or lead line.... we write it out. But "chord patterns"... do have standard harmonic implications.
And just because we don't know or are unaware of those harmonic implications, ( what the changes imply), doesn't make what we hear or like correct... It's our job as jazz players to be aware of those implications... our ears need to be educated... they don't come with all the software... If we're going to play around with changes... we need to be aware of where they come from so when we sub or re-harm, we keep the original tonal or harmonic implications in perspective. Or not...

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

You can play the chord any way that your ear accepts. But by taking the b7 out and moving the 6th down an octave, it becomes a 6/9 chord. Nothing wrong with that. It is still implying the right idea. There are no wrong chords when it comes to what your ears like. Dropping the b7 will hurt nothing. You do lose some tension, but the world will still keep spinning. =)

If we are playing duo and you play a 6/9 chord on a V when it's supposed to be dominant, I will be a sad monkey.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

If we are playing duo and you play a 6/9 chord on a V when it's supposed to be dominant, I will be a sad monkey.

Don't be sad Jake. I would not do that to you. I liked the G13 just fine. Just after talking about the b7 4-5 times, it seemed it was not sinking in. So "World keep on spinning", and someone tell the Jazz police everything is fine.

[CarolM]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Don't be sad Jake. I would not do that to you. I liked the G13 just fine. Just after talking about the b7 4-5 times, it seemed it was not sinking in.

Hey I gotcha, I had merely recalled what brought on my question. It's clear that G13 is NOT just a 13th interval added to a major triad, even though the notation does not indicate as much. And the books proceed as if this were understood.

[brwnhornet59]

Right, It is the 6th added to a dom7 chord. Nothing more. Unless you want to voice the 9th.