Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

TruthHertz · #1 06-22-2011, 03:48 PM

Mick Goodrick (AKA Mr Goodchord) wrote a series of voluminous books on voice leading.
Has anybody in this group had experience with these Goodrick VOICE LEADING books? Anybody able to relate how it changed the way you look at the fingerboard?

FatJeff · #2 06-22-2011, 04:47 PM

LOL, check your title

JakeAcci · #3 06-22-2011, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatJeff

LOL, check your title

That's the name. Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page

FatJeff · #4 06-22-2011, 04:59 PM

Oh. Looked like a typo given the author's name. my bad.

whatswisdom · #5 06-22-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

That'sthename.Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page

Looks defunct to me. Anyone have the inside scoop on his activities and on how to get hold of the books? "Advancing Guitarist" is a classic. I'd love to find out how to get more of his stuff.

TruthHertz · #6 06-22-2011, 09:33 PM

Yes, advancing guitarist you can still get. The voice leading almanac is out of print with no plans for a resurrection, that's why I was wondering if anyone worked with them. They were like the immersion language version of sounds you never thought you'd get out of a guitar. He meticulously and exhaustively worked out all permutations of voicings in cycles, and the sounds are so subtle that much of the time you can't tell what the harmony is, it's just like shadows moving over a landscape. I posted this because, though they went out of print a couple of years ago, there must be some people who have worked at least some of the cycles through and use these things in their playing. I wanted to find out just how it's working out.
When I asked him what the book was about, after the first volume came out, he said "the harmony we know is like the fish in the sea. We think of all these kinds of fish, all shapes and sizes, but what we know is just the ones that live along the surface. They're sun loving creatures. Beneath that there's an ocean filled with creatures we've never encountered. These are the sounds that voice led cycles will reveal: beings with all sorts of things sticking out, strange shapes that move in beautifully unimagined ways. Then he played some and I swear it wasn't a guitar he was playing. Like Bach chorale meets Stockhausen.
I was hoping with this being a jazz guitar group, and one with adventurers looking for new arranging approaches, I might find someone that is making their way through those books.
David

bako · #7 06-22-2011, 10:51 PM

I have the 1st book and have seen the others.
Mick presents many scale derived chords voice led through all the cyclical diatonic progressions.
I see this as fundamental awareness of the inherent harmonic content of a scale.
Nothing profound or conceptually complicated but I believe that building this type of thorough foundation
can change one's musical world.

Book #1 addresses triads, 7ths, 1 5 7 9 and 1 7 9 11 triad over bass note structure derived from major, melodic minor and harmonic minor scales.

ronjazz · #8 06-22-2011, 11:30 PM

My very first session with the voice-leading almanac was stunning, opening up the world of voice-leading in a way that the Van Eps method could only do after months of study. amazing stuff.

TruthHertz · #9 06-23-2011, 02:30 AM

Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool. Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

jsepguitar · #10 06-23-2011, 07:11 AM

I've also been interested to find out about these books. One thing I did find online are these articles written for keyboard players.

http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_1.pdf

http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_2.pdf

Billnc · #11 06-23-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool. Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

I'd be interested. I took a 40 hour seminar with him in 1987 or so. Since I've been back to playing guitar seriously I've finished a review of traditional chords and I want to start working on his stuff again. I was going to start with quartal harmony as he is one of the few to go beyond just stacked 4ths and utilize inversions and voice leading that is not just parallel 4ths up and down the neck.

I have many many notes, from the course and about 5 years work after, but I don't want to review. I'd rather have a fresh outlook. I was really disappointed to see his project with the books is discontinued. He's probably THE world expert on guitar harmony, period.

whatswisdom · #12 06-23-2011, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.

Count me in. I only have "Advancing Guitarist," though. Don't have the $$ to pay black market but would pay cover price if they became available.

wizard3739 · #13 06-23-2011, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool. Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

I am interested also. I went thru George Van Epps 1st book and really got a lot out of it. I've never seen the Mick Goodrick books but the desciption sounds like something I might be interested in.

wiz

TruthHertz · #14 06-23-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Count me in. I only have "Advancing Guitarist," though. Don't have the $$ to pay black market but would pay cover price if they became available.

Great! When we reach a critical mass here (read as: when I have a little time) I'll share a small segment for us all to work on, either post as PDF to the group or email attachment or something.
Then we can see what we collectively and individually come up with.
More later.
David

whatswisdom · #15 06-23-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Great! When we reach a critical mass here (read as: when I have a little time) I'll share a small segment for us all to work on, either post as PDF to the group or email attachment or something. Then we can see what we collectively and individually come up with.More later. David

Sounds like a plan. Thanks for your efforts, Dave. Looking forward to some new (to me) Goodrick.

Billnc · #16 06-23-2011, 04:42 PM

Thanks Dave!

whiskey02 · #17 06-26-2011, 08:18 PM

I have extra (unused) copies of Volumes 1 & 2 that were gifted to after I'd bought them. If anyone is interested in them, please shoot me a PM. Cover prices are US $50 and $35 plus shipping. I'm in Florida USA.

whiskey02 · #18 06-29-2011, 05:44 PM

The Goodrick volumes have been sold. Thanks for your interest.

e_del · #19 06-30-2011, 04:11 PM

I'm interested in those books too... too late to find them i suppose...

I was wondering if it was realistic thinking to re-write some of the cycle diagrams (at least the major scale ones) in a collective workteam, to share them in open-source format...

TruthHertz · #20 06-30-2011, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_del

I'm interested in those books too... too late to find them i suppose...

I was wondering if it was realistic thinking to re-write some of the cycle diagrams (at least the major scale ones) in a collective workteam, to share them in open-source format...

I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?
David

e_del · #21 06-30-2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?
David

Sure

Did you already set the specs for the documents (fonts, layout, etc...)?

TruthHertz · #22 06-30-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_del

Sure

Did you already set the specs for the documents (fonts, layout, etc...)?

No, I was going to scan some cycles and share them with those here that wanted to. Suggestions?
David

e_del · #23 06-30-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

No, I was going to scan some cycles and share them with those here that wanted to. Suggestions?
David

Not yet... at the moment I'm exploring LibreOffice as a tool to generate the cycles, and I'm taking the two files indicated by jsepguitar as a reference...

I'll let you know if I get into something useful...

Billnc · #24 06-30-2011, 09:54 PM

As I said, I refuse to look at my notes for review, I want to rediscover after all these years. I've just written out the quartal 4 note chords in C with their inversions. I learned the voicings of each chord's inversions up and down the neck. My next step, and where I am at now is starting with one chord, use good voice leading to work through cycle 2. I've marked off transitions I like and then tried to find some uses for those bits. Is this the working of of the books?

bako · #25 06-30-2011, 11:52 PM

I posted some ideas and examples that sprang from this thread about the "Goodchord" series.

The first explores what intervallic structures can be applied to any scale degree in a 7 note scale and consequentially be voice led through the various diatonic cycle progressions.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...te-scales.html

The second takes the idea of interchanging 4th chords from 2 modes voiced through cycles.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...ing-modes.html

Included in the 2nd thread are Major and Melodic Minor 4th chords voiced in 2nds.

I look forward to any forum interactions around this type of study approach.

wizard3739 · #26 07-01-2011, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?
David

Include me in, David. I am very interested in anything you wish to share.

wiz

e_del · #27 07-01-2011, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_del

Not yet... at the moment I'm exploring LibreOffice as a tool to generate the cycles, and I'm taking the two files indicated by jsepguitar as a reference...

I'll let you know if I get into something useful...

It just played around with cycle 3 triads progression, and looking at the stepwise voice movement, it seems that there's a "formula" repeating:

Code:

-1  -1   0 ...
-1   0  -1 ...
 0  -1  -1 ...

Where:
-1=diatonic movement downward
0 = no movement

is this true for all the cycles?
If yes, can someone post these "formulas"? I't should be quite simple to generate the data with a spreadsheet...
In a couple of hours I went to a sample page (that should be attached to this message.. hopefully).
Having the cycles formula it shouldn't take too much time to generate all the other ones...

e_del · #28 07-01-2011, 05:19 PM

much easier to write than to play on the guitar! :-)
Here is a new, more complete version of the document...

I hope it's of some interest for some of you...

TruthHertz · #29 07-01-2011, 11:12 PM

This is great!. Thank you so much.
Let's take these and start to run them through, all sets of strings possible, as complete a coverage on the fingerboard as possible. And let's throw in our observations, questions, suggestions and frustrations after a few days.
There are some ways I know this can be used but let's come back with our notes after spending some time on this.

Of course let's all chime in if anyone's having any problem getting started.

Start your engines!
David

Meggy · #30 07-02-2011, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David

I never knew these books existed, but it seems like fascinating stuff to me. Don't know how much use I could be, but please do count me in to any group effort to keep this material alive - it seems too important to let go. So yes, there certainly is interest from me, and cheers for posting about this.