UK's Jazz Guitar Pioneers

[grahambop]

Nothing for Pete Chilver but rather a lot of this guy, whose name has come up a few times on the thread.....

Fair dos to Hank, I enjoyed that. Nice melodic solo and good use of vibrato.

[sgcim]

Without in any way being critical of the famous Slowhand, I'm surprised to see Mairants mentioning Eric Clapton in a list of top jazz guitarists. Since the thread at least initially was about pioneers, I can see Clapton being in a list of UK pioneers of urban blues playing and maybe even topping that list but as a jazz player? I've heard a fair amount of EC over the years but nothing that I'd describe as jazz. Have I missed something that would explain his inclusion?

That's one reason why I'd never buy Ivor Mariants' books.
Clapton tried to play a jazz version of Layla on the unplugged series. It was pitiful from a jazz standpoint.

[Rob MacKillop]

I think we can all agree (and set aside) the fact that Clapton is not a pioneering British jazz guitarist. Back to those more deserving of the title.

[neatomic]

can't mention early bruce & baker without graham bond!! the graham bond quartet with john mclaughlin on guitar

cheers

[Rob MacKillop]

Lots of info. about Pete Chilver here:

Peter Chilver | Gypsy Jazz UK

That page could do with editing, but there's a lot of good info to be had. It's odd to think that he ended his days in Edinburgh, with the West End Cafe being only fifteen-minutes' walk from my house. There are many good jazz players in Edinburgh these days (self not included!) and quite a bit of jazz happening in the city, though never enough.

Mairants transcribes two solos by Chilver: More Than You Know, which he describes as "a rare example of the style employed by the then leading Bebop guitarist"; and Take The A Train, described as being in the Charlie Christian mode.

[Rob MacKillop]

can't mention early bruce & baker without graham bond!! the graham bond quartet with john mclaughlin on guitar

cheers

Wow, never seen/heard that before. You can see why Cream were thought of as a jazz band. Jack Bruce is playing lines I've heard him play with Cream, and Baker sounds not a million miles away from his Cream days. The singer also has some inflections Bruce would use. The only disappointment is the reticence of the guitarist - clearly he would never go on to do anything worthwhile

[JoniD]

Hi all, I've only just discovered this site, fascinating, at my age spending hours reading jazz guitar is better than.. anyway; I've been a pro guitarist all my life but by necessity only played jazz at home and with pals for peanuts. The only thing I can contribute here is that when I was maybe 10 the first guitarist that made me look up from my Meccano or whatever was a Roy Plummer who took a solo with a big and on our tiny TV and really sparked my interest, and a bit later Dave Goldberg played solo a couple of times on Cliff Michelmore's early evening show Nationwide?, he was asked what he was going to play and said 'Just a little blues'; I thought that was the title.

15? years later I was in a headbanging Deep Purple group, listening to Kenny Burrell at home mind, and we fetched up somewhere in the South West and was putting my shiny flares on when I heard the support band start up - I couldn't believe my ears because it was, I discovered, Ollie Halsall playing a white SG, they might have been a pickup band, they certainly weren't called Patto that night, but.. I was gobsmacked and told the guys I/we can't follow that. But of course they bombed and we went a storm with our 3 chord bashing but he was the first young guy, ie my age, I heard playing chromatic and really developing what he'd just played. Tragic, he'd have been as revered as Alan Holdsworth.

[Rob MacKillop]

Great first post, Johnny! Welcome to the forum. You'll fit right in.

[JoniD]

As to UK jazz pioneers, there was a BBC feature on Julian Bream a few yrs back which, in part, showed him anxiously writing out and learning an ' improvised' solo to play at Stephan Grappelli's Albert Hall concert the following week in a Hot Club tribute section, a dream of his since hearing Django in the '40's. He worked non-stop on his 32 bar solo and on the night, as he staggered through it, at the final 2-5-1 an amused Grappelli shouted ' Bravo Julian, one more, one more'.

[gcb]

One does not need to be a jazz player to excel as a musician.

James Jamerson played string bass for years before becoming Motown's backbone. He had a jazz background, that shows in his playing. However, Jamerson is not regarded as a jazz bassist, say as Ray Brown, Sam Jones, Paul Chambers, George Duvivier, Ron Carter, etc. He was and still is regarded as a R&B incomparable bass player. A master in his league, Motown bass. A creator of a style that inspired many.

In the same line, Jack Bruce started also with string bass, played with Graham Bond and Manfred Mann, experimented a lot with Cream and later on his career even went to play with Larry Coryell and Carla Bley. While he is recognized as a bass player who crossed back and forth between rock an jazz, he basically is regarded as rock bass player who gained world wide recognition with Cream.

And Clapton is Clapton, he doesn't need or beg to be "promoted" to jazz player to be what he is, a great master guitar player and a Legend.

Each of them excelled in their own genres, mostly Jamerson and Clapton, so to me there should be no need to force them into the jazz player category as a measure of their talent.

There seems to be a number of good jazz guitar players in the UK, and this thread is very informative in that respect so thanks to the OP. So far I knew Isaacs, Stewart (Super 400 player), Mairants, Taylor and Holdsworth, and of course the talented forum members from that origin that post here!

[silverfoxx]

Welcome JoniD,
We’re glad to have you on board. You will
enjoy the swordplay, and knowledge which
abounds here. You mentioned Dave Goldberg
indicating that you are not in your first flush
of youth. Perhaps you were aware of Dave’s
pal , Cedric West, my late Tutor. who was a
great character. He introduced me to a
number of top flight players , JP, Barney,
Louis Stewart , Ike Isaacs etc . We look
forward to more of your stories .

Best ,
Silverfoxx

[sgcim]

Speaking of Dave Goldberg, I was watching a program they have here in the States called Classic Arts Showcase, which usually features great classical artists in performance.
All of a sudden, they had Stephan Grappelli playing with a trio that featured a very fidgety looking guitar player.
He played a very good Django-esque solo that had me running for my VCR remote. It turned out to be Dave Goldberg.
There's another video on you tube where he's featured playing a brilliant bebop solo with a big band led by a well-known US sax player (Benny Golson?).

[JoniD]

Thanx Silver fox, amazing wealth of knowledge & material in this forum, I shan't need the library now. I think I remember a Cedric West having a combo on a guitar radio show with maybe 3 or 4 gtrs, arrangements, in harmony etc.
The only other early jazz story that comes to mind is seeing Wes Montgomery at Ronnie Scott's in '65 after standing next to me for 5 minutes listening to Ronnie's jokes, me too shy to ask him something stupid probably, he took the stage with Stan Tracy & co and said to them 'what you wanna play?'. In my 17 yr old naivety I assumed every tune was rehearsed, learnt and arranged and had no idea there was a common vocabulary with these guys. I was a Clapton nut and it literally changed my life because I'd seen the MJQ previously and thought, sorry, this jazz stuff is too sterile, but this gig was like a rock concert, full of loud affecionados cheering solos and even parts of solos where he played with the time and then released etc. And he obviously loved Stan Tracy. I later lay on a bench at Kings Cross but couldn't sleep for the sound of it all till my 5am to New Barnet. Amazing night.

[Rob MacKillop]

Keep the stories coming, lads. All good stuff.

[silverfoxx]

JoniD
You are quite right about The BBC radio show long ago, I believe hosted
by Steve Race ( or maybe Humphrey Lyttleton ? ) when I was a young
lad , before TV, became commonplace. Cedric West then led a Sextet of
top guitarists on the weekly program , I guess around 10.30-11.00pm
Again before my time as a player Cedric had Wes Montgomery staying
at his house in Goodmayes during the 1965 visit .when Wes made those
BBC recordings .completely off the cuff. I did have a B&W pic of Cedric
and Wes at his house, depicting Wes playing Cedric's L5 ,with De Armond
pick up and , Ced with his White Falcon Gretsch ( later bought by Eric
Clapton I think)
I actually only met Cedric in 1984. when he "condescended" to teach me
to play . We struck up a long friendship, he knew just about every top
musician you could name. I sat in awe , when he, Martin Taylor. Dave
Cliff and Ernie Craneburgh played four part arrangements that he wrote.
In his latter years he ran a Jazz Group comprising. Janusz Carmello (Tpt
& Flugel. Phil Snack ,alto , a Baritone player, Bass & Drums . Cedric
doubled on Trombone, his first instrument, which he played on the BBC
recordings live on" That Was The Week that was."
He was a marvellous tutor. and often put me on the spot.,getting off the
stand and telling me to sit in for a few numbers , ( no pressure ?)
Tina May Jazz vocalist walked into the pub one Sunday, the band on a
break, I was delegated to play a couple of tunes, " I began with "Wave"
Tina stepped on stage and sang it with me accompanying, I was mightily
pleased. Particularly when a customer said afterwards " That was a
nice arrangement, how long did you reheatse?" LOL
Sorry to drone on but your post prompted some memorable moments.
( By the way, Tina May married Stan Tracey's son , drummer Clarke)







,

[neatomic]

much beloved ollie! ..always happy to read a fellow admirers story



our man holdsworth (later)



cheers

[sunnysideup]

Alexis Korner, Ray Warleigh, Dick Heckstall-Smith, Zoot Money, John Marshall, Chris Pyne, Andy Fraser .... ?

[sunnysideup]

Chris Spedding... jazz, rock, rockabilly, post-punk.

[neatomic]

[QUOTE=sunnysideup;850153]Alexis Korner, Ray Warleigh, Dick Heckstall-Smith, Zoot Money, John Marshall, Chris Pyne, Andy Fraser .... ?
/QUOTE]

dutch guitarist peter thorup

doin mingus..love it

cheers

[neatomic]

Chris Spedding... jazz, rock, rockabilly, post-punk.

chris spedding, another great fave...saw ollie (later) playing maxs kansas city with john ottaway...punky performance artist type...good pub fun..but ollie always blazing!

after gig, spedding went up to chat with ollie

great to see ollie and spedding together..2 of the best... faves of that early rock-fusion and beyond era

cheers

[sunnysideup]

[sunnysideup]

[sgcim]

Here's Dave Goldberg with the big band, and Tubby Hayes.

[sgcim]

Here's Dave Goldberg again, this time with Stephane Grappelli and George Shearing in the mid to late 1940s:

[Rob MacKillop]

Great to see all this reminiscing. Some great videos there too. I'm surprised at the Chris Spedding track, as all I've heard of him before was "Motorbiking". Quite different!