What NOT to play while improvising?

[FattMusiek]

This is a weird question that will probably evoke the classic response of "It depends on the situation!" I was thinking that if you know what NOT to play, it could conceivably help while improvising. I don't mean simply what will sound "bad," but also things you've found to sound unhip and trite; things to avoid. An example might be landing on a fourth while playing over a major chord. The concept of "avoid notes" is probably something I should begin researching, huh?

I know that what sounds "bad" is subjective, especially in jazz- a form of music that is so creative and open to interpretation. That is why I am also asking what kind of patterns, scales, note combinations sound trite, lame, boring and cliche. I often feel that what I play over the rhythm changes in standard jazz pieces out of the Real Books is just...not good enough. Not deep, not what I would ideally play. The link between ideas in my head and what comes out in my guitar solos is just not there yet.

In closing, I know that every note, chord, scale, mode (etc.) has its use in certain contexts, but what have you all found to just not work most of the time?

Thank you for reading!

[princeplanet]

Dunno, straight CST, unimaginative phrasing, over reliance on scales, patterns or licks, gratuitous side stepping, clumsy handling of subs- just the usual....

Oh, and landing the 11th over major, some players handle that well, even if it takes half a bar to resolve it. It's about "how", yeah?

[cosmic gumbo]

This seems to be more of an issue for players who focus on the harmonic element without proper balance of being creative rhythmically also. Rhythmically, any pitch can be worked in. Nothing more boring than listening to nonstop 16th notes.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

This is not a jazz thing, but shredding gets boring quickly. The first time I saw someone tapping I thought "cool", but know it's: here come the same arpeggios repeated over and over...

[zonedout245]

I feel that too much pentatonic in the same key is sometimes boring. Raw, expressive blues is nice, but if I can predict the next note, it's not always a good thing.

[Jazzyteach65]

KEEP it simple first,

[Jazzyteach65]

KEEP it simple first, make those who AREN'T musicians understand what you're sayong, then dazzle them with pyrotechnics.

[On Sugar Hill]

In "I'm Old Fashioned" played by Coltrane on Blue Train, Trane holds a 4th over a major chord, and it's one of the most colorful notes of the song.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by On Sugar Hill

In "I'm Old Fashioned" played by Coltrane on Blue Train, Trane holds a 4th over a major chord, and it's one of the most colorful notes of the song.

I've ALWAYS regarded that track as phrasing a melody at its perfection. The way all the players-Curtis Fuller, Lee Morgan and Trane play with the head of the tune and build upon it is damn lyrical.

Fattmusic- listen to how all the players start thier respective solos, what tones they start with of the head, and how they manipulaqte the melody.

[Uli]

I like what Dizzy G. wrote in his autobiography: If you happen to land on a wrong note, just hold it until it fits.

[itsall4you]

Originally Posted by Uli

I like what Dizzy G. wrote in his autobiography: If you happen to land on a wrong note, just hold it until it fits.

It works for horn players but not so much guitar players.

The note dies before getting there

[franco6719]

All I can really tell you is that: as my ears have gotten better and my thinking subtler and more demanding, my playing sounds worse. That's just the way it is, I think.

[franco6719]

Originally Posted by itsall4you

It works for horn players but not so much guitar players.

The note dies before getting there

Unless you use a lot of overdrive, distortion pedals, etc.. Santana can make a note last for seven days it seems. That's a good point for us "traditional" jazz with fat hollowbodys though. Something I think about a lot. In fact, I remember Tal Farlow saying that he really couldn't play slow because he couldn't get enough sustain from his amplifier (or something like that). So how they hell can you hold these notes on a clean system anyway?

[itsall4you]

Well you can use compressors to help a bit. Or using octaves helps in slower songs.

But I think that's just how the instrument is.. My thinking is that that's why everyone wants to play fast because you can't do so much with one note.

[franco6719]

Octaves and chords do have more sustain. I agree though that it's the instrument itself that provokes a need for more notes to fill in the gaps and spaces that, for example, a trumpet player can fill by holding a note for three bars or so.

[mr. beaumont]

just don't hang on a major seventh over a dominant seventh chord.

unless of course, you want to.

there are no bad notes, but there sure as hell are bad resolutions. some of them can be described, but most of them are a "case by case" basis, and you know them when you hear them.

(btw, i'm also in the camp that does not hear a perfect fourth as dissonant over a major chord...it's a "handle with care" note, not an "avoid" note)

[randalljazz]

What NOT to play while improvising?

everything you know in one solo...

[eddue]

When I think of what not to play, it usually becomes when not to play. I try to leave as much space (rests) between notes and before and after chords and riffs. Sometime, just to change things up, I try to play as few note as possible. All that space breathes life into a song while giving others room to play and give a nice contrast to those times when there is a lot notes being played.

[FattMusiek]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

there are no bad notes, but there sure as hell are bad resolutions. some of them can be described, but most of them are a "case by case" basis, and you know them when you hear them.

I'm interested in knowing more about bad resolutions...Anyone willing to share some bad ones?

One example I can think might be...making any resolution at all. I've noticed this when I'm doing a solo based off a major scale- sometimes it sounds kind of corny to resolve to the tonic of a ii V I. To me it's like "Well gee. I just put a period at the end and anything more is kind of pointless."

I'm new to improvising over changes, as well as relatively new to playing jazz, bebop and blues, so my example might be bad...

[cosmic gumbo]

One New Year I swore I wuz gonna give up booze and women. Now that was a bad resolution!

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I'm interested in knowing more about bad resolutions...Anyone willing to share some bad ones?

One example I can think might be...making any resolution at all. I've noticed this when I'm doing a solo based off a major scale- sometimes it sounds kind of corny to resolve to the tonic of a ii V I. To me it's like "Well gee. I just put a period at the end and anything more is kind of pointless."

I'm new to improvising over changes, as well as relatively new to playing jazz, bebop and blues, so my example might be bad...

many more interesting notes than tonic (yeah, too obvious)...try (notes, in C)

| f g a c | b d f g | f#... |




-----------|---------3--|--2---------
-----------|----3-6-----|------0-----
------2-5--|-4----------|---------0---------
-3-5-------|------------|-------------2----
-----------|------------|-----------------3-
-----------|------------|--------------------



let the f# ring...

[franco6719]

Maybe it was when I put the concept "avoid note" in my brain that the natural 4 started sounding wrong to me?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think of "too much" resolution as something that can impede the
forward momentum of your playing. I like to "play through" the I --
keep the line going to the the next phrase, or resolving on a cooler
note, like a 9th, 6th or #11:


%_._._._._._._._|_._._._._._q___._|_._._._._._q___ .===q
----3-----------|-----------------|-----------------|--------
------3-7-3-6-3-|-5-4-----4-------|-4-3-----3-------|--------
--3-------------|-----6-3---6---5-|-----5-2---5---4===4------
----------------|-----------------|-----------------|--------
----------------|-----------------|-----------------|--------
----------------|-----------------|-----------------|--------

Gmin7 __________|C7 ______________|FMaj7____________|________



[
Legend:
% eighth note rest
. eighth note
q quarter note
=== tied note
]

For fun, note that the C7 measure is the same as the FMaj7, just a step higher.

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by itsall4you

It works for horn players but not so much guitar players.

The note dies before getting there

What I do is repeat the note several times to really establish it as if it were quite intentional. It find it works pretty well, and sometimes it can sound downright inspired. In fact, I've done that before and then liked it so much I went back and tried to figure out exactly what I did and when I did it so I could actually use that idea on purpose again.

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

This is a weird question that will probably evoke the classic response of "It depends on the situation!" I was thinking that if you know what NOT to play, it could conceivably help while improvising. I don't mean simply what will sound "bad," but also things you've found to sound unhip and trite; things to avoid. An example might be landing on a fourth while playing over a major chord. The concept of "avoid notes" is probably something I should begin researching, huh?

I know that what sounds "bad" is subjective, especially in jazz- a form of music that is so creative and open to interpretation. That is why I am also asking what kind of patterns, scales, note combinations sound trite, lame, boring and cliche. I often feel that what I play over the rhythm changes in standard jazz pieces out of the Real Books is just...not good enough. Not deep, not what I would ideally play. The link between ideas in my head and what comes out in my guitar solos is just not there yet.

In closing, I know that every note, chord, scale, mode (etc.) has its use in certain contexts, but what have you all found to just not work most of the time?

Thank you for reading!

Happy Birthday over and over and over and over. That would be really annoying!
=-) PJ

[markf]

Originally Posted by Uli

I like what Dizzy G. wrote in his autobiography: If you happen to land on a wrong note, just hold it until it fits.

do you mean "to be or not to bop" ?

That is a very entertaining book. what an interesting man he was.

[C.A.JO.]

What not to play: Scales!

What to play: What you hear! (Hopefully it's not scales:-)).

How?

- Develop the necessary technique for your music goals.
- Learn the "language" in the style you're into. (In the beginning this is licks, lines, and patterns. But you should also listen to records every day from the style you want to learn - I assume you're into jazz).
- Practice ear training (this involves music theory).
- Practice: "hear" a phrase --> "play the phrase".