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I have always found playing improvised lines and counting bars at the same time difficult/impossible.
Eg first 16 of 'Bolivia' or 'So What' etc. Oddly this only happens with a static tonality like 16 of G7 example.
My brain can either count bars and play dead simple ideas or play complex lines and loose the time. Very, very frustrating. Im ok with long sequences of changes like 'All the things you' are for example.
I'm playing with just a bass/drums/guitar trio at the moment and this is exposing my inability to deal with this.
The drummer refuses to give me clues ''I'm not your time keeper'' etc. etc.
I cant think of how to practice this. My metronome doesn't out line 16 bar stretches. If I count 4 I forget which 4 it was! Trying to do it in my head and tapping a foot is hopeless.
(Apart from sacking the drummer) any suggestions welcome.
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01-25-2018 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by md54
Good related posts from similar thread...
Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Reg
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Counting doesn't work for me. On the contrary, it's the easiest and fastest way to detour my brain to the left hemisphere, where the brain goes for safety. Phrase feel, or the sensing of musical thought is truly a musical skill that can be achieved through thoughtful practice and learning the "weight" of a phrase. There's a sense of breath, an arc of content and line that's different in a 1 bar phrase, a two bar and a long vamp segment. For the longer areas, practice with an awareness of the original tune and content. Don't practice "things to do to fill the time" but rather, try practicing the "tune" with the linearity and melody of the song in mind. Make variations on the form and don't look at soloing as an excuse to abandon form.
Why do you turn to the drummer for your cue? Your bass player is going to be your kin and ally in song form. It's the bass player that's going to be tied to and by the same song form parameters you are.
Yes, expect to get lost as you're acquiring these skills, but with good focused practicing, you may learn a new and deeper reason and structure to your own soloing. It's not about filling the space with appropriate scales, it's about finding something in the original tune worth bringing out and making it your own. Look for help in the song form, then see if the bass player can duo with you while you're soloing. Let the drummer orchestrate what the two of you are doing.
' don't know if this makes any sense. Good luck
David
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with long vamp over one chord think 1 only per bar (or even per two)... maybe it helps...
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Maybe sacking the drummer isn't such a bad idea. o
I mean, I get the "I'm not your time-keeper" thing but if giving indications that "a change is a-coming" (especially in tunes with long static sections) was not too humble a task for Joe Jones, or Elvin Jones, it's not too humble a task for your drummer.
Further, the drummer (in such indications) helps the AUDIENCE keep their place in the music.
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Of course you do, it is impossible. Rhythm isn't something you count, it's something you feel. Originally Posted by md54
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Who the h*ll is he then?The drummer refuses to give me clues ''I'm not your time keeper'' etc. etc.
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Getting lost when soloing on a vamp type tune ....
Yeah it happens to everyone
When there's no or not many distinguishing features in the form
My solution is to put in some distinguishing features ,
a motif the band plays after 8 bars or
16bars or
maybe a 2bar question and answer type phrases
Anything that breaks the form into
more manageable size pieces
......
My bete noir is the last A of Rhythm changes tunes
AABA AABA in the middle there's 3 A's
Damn how many A's have we played ?
Aaaaargh !
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Try to feel the rhythm called Boogaloo while playing. Its used in hip hop often. Find it on the YouTube, study it and at first try it while listening to your music and then while playing. Should help fast.
There are other rhythms that could be used similarly. You should find what works for you.
Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk
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Just wait for the band to change and say you were playing across the barline
joking aside...a few things.
1. Read and memorize those Reg posts, they're golden.
2. Practice playing lines that have definitive bar lengths. It's a great way to have continuity in your solo, anyway.
3. Find the clave in everything
4. This is a weird idea, but hear me out. Practice for situations that might screw you up. Using iReal or Band in a Box, if you have, create a two chord backing track with very random switches, odd number of bars, long, short. Make it long enough so that a lot of situations pop up. Then put it away and don't look at it for a day so you forget what you did. Then play over it, without watching the chart, and practice recovering if the change comes unexpectedly.
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Sacking the drummer is actually the best idea. Any musician in an ensemble who is not committed to making the whole group sound good is just a cowboy, worse, an a$$hole. Everyone in the group should actively work on making the total musical expression be the best it can be. I have a drummer friend who is a master of helping musicians stay oriented, and it doesn't cramp his style in the least. That's a valuable member of the musical team. Originally Posted by md54
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+1 the job of the rhythm section is to make the soloist sound good, and marking out the structure of the tune is part of that. All the great rhythm players do that, and it's something I enjoy listening to - building some tension and leading into the "1". People like Ed Thigpen or Roy Haynes would do that in a super-hip way and really lift the song to another level. I wonder how well the OP's drummer knows the tunes, and can he count past 4? Originally Posted by lawson-stone
One technique for keeping the form together is singing the head internally and relating your playing to that.
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I knew a drummer who told me he did that. Further, he said other drummers he knew did it too. Originally Posted by rahsaan
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That's a hard one to answer... I just kind of listened to records, jammed along, played with other musicians and got used to it.
I wish I could give more practical advice... Sing the melody in your head as you improvise, maybe?
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Yknow, for giggles, I put on kind of blue just now, and just listened to jimmy on "so what."
Dude drops cues ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE.
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I work a lot with kids, non jazz, and we have a lot of discussions about this stuff. Every instrument has its cues in various styles of music. The better the musician the easier it is to play with them, and this is a big part of it. If the drummer is not getting it, he's probably about on your level. Not necessarily his fault. If a bit defensive.
A lot of times the cues are really subtle, almost subconscious. Had an irritated kid one time remark, "I don't understand, we played it so much better when you played with us". Realized I wasn't really teaching them to do it themselves, to reinforce each other, to signal sections etc. These are actually really great conversations to have.
As a singer, it's pretty easy to imply in endings or extra bars by sustaining a pitch or whatever. Guitar you imply with stops or crescendo etc. You learn to communicate with drummers by what you play and what you say. Basses usually have some kind of slidethingy. :-) To indicate sections etc., at least the in cheesy kind of music that we're playing.
Probably just important to listen to the pros, with an ear toward what they're actually DOING, on all instruments. They're all doing it, but some things are easier to hear than others. On So What, the bass pattern at the beginning is the obvious pattern that gives the form structure. If you're thinking something like that you're not gonna lose your place even though it's all one chord for multiple bars.
Four on six has the opening riff which crosses bar lines. Incorporate similar polyrhythmic devices which can't be satisfied in one bar in comping and soloing patterns as well. Anyway, again, the links I posted above from Reg are gold.
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I agree; As you imply the drummer could accent the '4' in the "last" bar before a key change or 'long static section'. Typically I just play along with a guitar or piano player and this is what we do for each other. I.e. Accent that 'last' chord before a major change, especially over 'long static sections'. When that doesn't work a head nod often does the trick! Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Maybe sacking the drummer isn't such a bad idea. o
I mean, I get the "I'm not your time-keeper" thing but if giving indications that "a change is a-coming" (especially in tunes with long static sections) was not too humble a task for Joe Jones, or Elvin Jones, it's not too humble a task for your drummer.
Further, the drummer (in such indications) helps the AUDIENCE keep their place in the music.
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I have had the problem at times. I didn't know how to solve it, but, eventually, as I became more familiar with the tune the problem solved itself. It's feeling the length of things.
Then, I'd try more crossing the bar lines and the problem would reappear. Again, with more playing experience with that tune and similar tunes, the problem would go away again.
One of the most valuable things a teacher ever said to me was to chew me out for a situation in which the bass player got lost. "You're supposed to help him!", yelled the teacher.
One of the questions raised by the OP is whether the drummer knows where he is in the song. Some don't, but a good drummer always knows and is generous with the knowledge.
I once had to play a student performance with a top pro drummer. I had to solo in 7/4 and I wasn't confident that I wouldn't get lost. The drummer asked me if there was anything I wanted. Very kind of him to ask. I responded by joking that I wanted a loud hit on the first beat of every bar. During the performance I was struggling, but I heard him do it and it helped. Great players make those around them better.
In contrast, I recall a jam where the kb player decided to play the 1 only every other bar in 7/4. It was way over my head, and some others who were in the jam. The kb player couldn't have cared less. It was a jam, but I'd seen him do something similar on stage at a jazz festival.
Replacing the drummer is an idea. Continuing the search to be able to do it on your own, no matter what the drummer does, is also an idea.
I'll contribute one idea. Write the numbers 1 2 3 4 in big letters on a piece of paper and look at them one at a time for each chorus. When that gets embarrassing, just imagine them.
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I wish I could ‘love’ rpjazzguitars post
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A few thoughts, in no particular order...
So What and Impressions are tough tunes that can turn into train wrecks (16+8 bars of 1 chord = oy vey). You're not alone; many people are reluctant to call these tunes precisely for this reason. Keeping it together is a function of the whole band keeping it together, which means communication, listening and trust. If it's not happening on the the tune, but otherwise the band is cool, drop the tune. If the band is not cool, drop the band.
There's a difference between being the "timekeeper" (i.e, controlling tempo) and communicating transitions in the form and setting up changes in feel. Many would say the bass player owns tempo and the drummer owns dynamics, and feel; the two share cues. So a possible response to the drummer is to say you're not asking him to keep the time, you're asking him anticipate section changes a bar early for legit musical reasons. But, you do have an obligation to know where you are in the form most of the time, so you should also follow others' practice suggestions.
It's OK for you to make the change early some of the time and/or play something that bridges the two chords, such as hovering around (assuming D-dorian/Eb-Dorian) C or h/w runs beginning on B and C. The effect is to create tension for the period of transition between the two chords that you can resolve when you figure out where you are. Check out Larry Carlton's version on Last Nite; he does a bunch of stuff like this (though I assume not because he's lost).
Make eye contact with the bass player, and listen to him closely around the time you feel like you're getting close to the change. Practice wiggling your eyebrows and mouthing the word "now?" at home.
John
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Thanks guys, interesting.
On the think of the melody advice. Well Bolivia has no melody for 16 bars, its just a repeating bass line. That's what does my head in!
The drummer? An old hippy who likes to pretend he is in an alternative dimension. He can play though. Unfortunately not much choice for jazz drummers round here so I'm stuck with him.
Seems like its quite a common problem!
I'm going to find a 'play along' and just keep practicing I suppose till I can feel the 16 bars.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Thanks. That was really helpful. I think.
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For 16 bars of featureless desert ....
I'm not sure if this will be helpful, but one trick is to try to avoid counting as much as possible.
Instead, sing a drum part that lasts a specific number of bars. For a fast tempo, 4 bars might work.
So the count is (for example) 1! ba pa ta ta da da da ta dah; 2! (same thing); 3! etc.
Same trick in reading rhythms -- say you want to nail the and-of-4 for a hit. For me, counting 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & tends to be less accurate than singing a drum fill that ends on and-of-4. Makes it easier to play the measure and makes it easier to play it accurately.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-26-2018 at 03:32 PM.
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Well then don't fire him; upgrade him from a play along drummer to the owner of the form - promote him to conductor. A jazz drummer as conductor owns the form and signals the changes in the form. This is literally what it means for a drummer to "know how a song goes"... versus just playing along. Originally Posted by md54
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I use a technique that was suggested to me years ago. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It's quite easy to feel 4 bar sections. Then for each 4 bar section focus in some way on (or even turn slightly towards) each of the 4 corners of the room in turn to keep track of 16 bar sections. Works wonderfully well once you get the hang of it.
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