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I sit corrected about calling them snippets "licks" earlier. Whenever people complain about licks and cliches, jazz actually is not the 1st genre that comes to my mind. It's always baroque (thats why the link T.Greene with that topic) with its typical ornaments and literally the world's most overused.. hm excuse me.. lick
in the ending cadences. By itself it means nothing, its short, so I guess 2 features is enough to give an example that also in general works with jazz. When the piece ends with this and has been boring, the "lick"(not trolling.. just for continuity) sounds lame also. If the piece has been great, the khm "lick" can sound badass.
T.Greene's method is so close to the lick-training in jazz. He said "...played hundreds of those little things.. thousands ..." and got the impro working fluently.
Eh, I'm tired now. Maybe I'm not making too much sense..
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07-13-2017 02:12 PM
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An academic expert discussing 18th century 'licks'
AOC 011: Partimenti and the Secrets of the Greatest Composers – An Interview with Robert Gjerdingen | Art of Composing
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Christian I knew you would show up with this book...
And still I would prefer we'd put away books and open a couple of scores and really see what and how is going own.
One does need to be an academic to discuss it...
?????????? ? ????? SM-G570F ????? Tapatalk
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Please, don't take my posts as a personal attack... for me it's a conversation, a process... exhange of opinions.
Originally Posted by emanresu
I sit corrected about calling them snippets "licks" earlier. Whenever people complain about licks and cliches, jazz actually is not the 1st genre that comes to my mind. It's always baroque (thats why the link T.Greene with that topic) with its typical ornaments and literally the world's most overused.. hm excuse me.. lick in the ending cadences. By itself it means nothing, its short, so I guess 2 features is enough to give an example that also in general works with jazz. When the piece ends with this and has been boring, the "lick"(not trolling.. just for continuity) sounds lame also. If the piece has been great, the khm "lick" can sound badass.
T.Greene's method is so close to the lick-training in jazz. He said "...played hundreds of those little things.. thousands ..." and got the impro working fluently.
Eh, I'm tired now. Maybe I'm not making too much sense..
Wha I am trying to say is that in baroque periog the language was very well developed. You did not even need a great talent just had to be a diligent student and you would write a nice good music. The musical market was overwhelmed with music which was written on every occasion - and often each time new - the competition was very intensive...
In baroque Venice they wrote hundreds of operas - and Vivaldi who wrote about 40 was not the most prolific and succesful in opera genre... obviously they used a lot of typical cliches... especially in vocal music.
So was jazz language in swing and bop period - very well developed, with clear 'grammar and syntax'... but there was a big difference to me.
What we call a lick and a cliche? To me the idea of lick is really close to cliche... but I cannot say the same about baroque cadences... because the important thing about cadence is the form. It indicated the moment of form, it shows how a composer works with the form... so even here it is already a bit more than just a cliche...
If we take some simple baroque piece like for example this Gavotte (I did not find a better recording unfortunately)
It is probably as simple as it can be... based on he most typical harmonic turnaround with no special melody and very simple 2-voice counterpoint...
But what's important (and was important for the audience those) is where it is located in the Sonata it is taken from
Here's the complete Sonata (much better performance)
You can see that the whole material of Sonata (except maybe gigue) if we take them as separate pieces is relatively simple.. but the way the whole Sonata is composed it turns it in a special thing... it is also the form on a higher level, and also meaningful.. this Gavotte turns into a PS, modest conclusion after more intensive and dramatic Gigue and Sarabanda...
And it was also often that they tried to put such a 'bourlesque' at the end.. so to say.. to get the listener back to earth)))
We know also that during performance players could re-organize or omit parts of Suites - this way to participate in composition.. as well as adding ornaments or improvizing harmony...
I myself do use some typical turnarounds when playing continuo...
In a way they are maybe cliches...
And still to me it's very far from what we call a lick in jazz... first jazz licks are much more limited. Even 'partimenti' mentioned by Christian are the open source for further development and the lick is just what it is - a melodic phrase related to harmonic turnaround... maybe you would argue but to me one cannot really develope a lick because them it will be already another lick. Hope you see what I mean...
I believe it's connected with original vocal nature of jazz soloing - it all sounds as someone sings (even if it is already impossible to sing).
We can again try to compare it with baroque opera in Venice - where everybody sang... recently I studied Venetian collections of 'canzoni di Battello' (popular gondoliere's songs) - they are often copy or imitate opertica areas. That's where the cliches are everywhere! Nosukations cadences are all as typical as can be... and in teh simplest possible form often...
And still they have more possibilities for inner development than typical jazz lick
And for Bach... I just think his name turned into sort of currency... it is dropped now and then as reference for anything... and Bach is unique and special that I believe one has to go really deep into and the he will forget about comparing Bach with jazz, Brahms, rock, or samba...
It's unique a hige universe that includes probably everything one can think a say about our world...
That's why I probably overreacted about Bach (and sorry if it seemed offensive)...
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No problemo.
Hm Bach as currency.. It's a cliche to mention Bach whenever. I get it.
Just played this 1 piece until bloody blisters and got some of it coming out later in my own things without a conscious intention of copying something. Similar thing happened once with "Scrapple from the apple". There was an exam coming and we needed to play some tunes(only) to pass. Same time my teacher asked to learn Fmaj scale all over the neck. So after quite a few hours of playing Scrapple(chopped up (very "licky" that way) until the whole thing came out, as always), picked up the F for the second task, and fingers played the scale with the same attitude. Didn't copy Scrapple, just tried to continue with that energy. Something like that. Seemed so easy that day. Wasn't into jazz so much back then though.
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@Jonah: Love reading your posts. I'm wondering whether you enjoyed the Ted Greene clip(s).
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Thank you. Originally Posted by destinytot
As per Ted Greene - I don't know...
I watched this video before.
Of course he mastered it on the guitar.
But I do not see anything extremely exceptional in it - except that he does it on guitar maybe.... not so common.
I know many classical musicians who can improvize in baroque style (and not only in baroque).. I cannot do that on guitar as easily as he does I just never practiced it specially, but can do something like that on piano.
Besides, what he plays sounds more like baroque-ish soundtrack from 70's rather than real baroque impro.
One of the main points is maybe that he composes and plays it in a very post-romantic manner... he does some moves that just were not possible in actual baroque time... and the way he phrases the melody is very modern too...
It's not that it's bad... after all he does not teach actual baroque improvization.
What I feel like a little strange... that it's out of form at least seems to be... I mean as if he hears it like an endless flow...
And it's not only that it is an excersise but somehow it's in the way he plays.
But basically it's something like common excersise for continuo player... and all this exclamation about 'Bach re-incartions' are ridiculous of course...
THough it's more about those who exclaim than Ted Greene of course... he is the master of the instrument.
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Simple but tasteful improvization on viola da gamba by one of the guys I know personally..
I think it is very well heard that he builds up the form and hears the whole thing very well at the same time he feels very free about some micro details...
Last edited by Jonah; 07-14-2017 at 06:40 AM.
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Poor old Gjerdingen his life's work dismissed in a moment haha. Anyway his work is not primarily concerned with Bach. Bach wrote some Gallant music but he was coming from a different, older approach of course. Originally Posted by Jonah
Vivaldi is more the sort of thing. I think you can tell his music is made of stock phrases reworked endlessly by listening to it or looking at the score.
What I do know is the more I play through Gjerdingen's 'modules' the more I hear them in the music. Very much like jazz. There are certainly both standard harmonic movements and linear licks in the music of the 18th century (some of which show up in jazz of course), I can't imagine anyone disputing that?
In terms of jazz, something I can claim direct performing knowledge of, I think licks and patterns are important to sound competent.
The primary aim of a professional musician is to be consistent - then or now.
It helps to have a wide ranging repertoire of stock phrases and patterns that you can combine and elaborate to create something quickly and easily.
This can subsume the other values of you let it. Also it can be seen as a retreat from a purist idea of true improvisation or composition. I tend to see it as a window into true improv, and a way of defeating the 'blank page' problem.
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? Originally Posted by christianm77
I don't deny it as an educational method - though I would prefer to teach building up the form...
- you learn the cadences
- you choose a simple form and try to come to middle cadence first then to final cadence
I think it's important that you go from beginning to first cadence on your own...
As for the Vivaldi... of course hard to compare him to Bach... but mostlly it's very simple and trasnparent textures that makes his music to seem to be constructed in the way you mentioned.
What I would like to stress maybe - if they ever used anything at that time as a real cliche it was a form.
First think he does or think of is the form... not that he conciously does it every time or makes a plan, but the form was real cliche those days... (which was closely related to genre references that were readable in music both by players and audience).
And prominent composers like Bach or Handel or sometimes Vivaldi are interesting exactly by individual treatment of these forms (and thus by breaking cliches).
(we can hardly say it about jazz)
When writers use the same sentences - we do not say the use cliches... usually cliches shows on the level of form or content.
Speaking of literature - the closest thing to 'licks' was in Ancient Scandinavian poetry where there was a fixed vocabulary of metaphors called 'kenning' and poets improvized using combinations of these kennings...
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There's a fabulous clip of Steve Herberman and Mark Kleinhaut together, but it's the improvising of melodic counter-lines in solo playing I'd like to highlight as coming from Ted's bag of baroque.
I believe Steve Herberman studied with Ted Greene. (For me, Steve is Neo - he's The One.)
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How beautiful. EDIT: I tried to write that in Russian but Cyrillic comes out like this: ??? ???????. Originally Posted by Jonah
Last edited by destinytot; 07-14-2017 at 08:12 AM.
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Thanks)))How beautiful. EDIT: I tried to write that in Russian but Cyrillic comes out like this: ??? ???????.
You can use Latin transcription I will get it... You know I can even read and sometimes even understand Russian words in American movies (where theyshould represent Russia)- after that I can read anything...
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Short version - If you need to crank the shit out you will employ whatever standard tropes are required and perhaps, transcend them.
To be honest I don't think about this stuff too much. If I 'go to sleep' when playing, it's good. Much of the time I'm cranking the Handel (boom Ching) and out comes the stuff I get paid for.
I'm.l not trying to be flippant. I feel a lot of affinity for the concept of craft and artisanship, keeps me from pondering stuff which is probably best left to the philosophers.
I think I perceive this in the work of other artists. But Shakespeare is better than Marlow, Bach is better the Vivaldi etc. And there were heaps of educated people in the 18th century who could knock together a minuet but are forgotten. And so on.
Play the gig. Write the commission. Great paid. Repeat.
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Short version - If you need to crank the shit out you will employ whatever standard tropes are required and perhaps, transcend them.
To be honest I don't think about this stuff too much. If I 'go to sleep' when playing, it's good. Much of the time I'm cranking the Handel (boom Ching) and out comes the stuff I get paid for.
I'm.l not trying to be flippant. I feel a lot of affinity for the concept of craft and artisanship, keeps me from pondering stuff which is probably best left to the philosophers.
I think I perceive this in the work of other artists. But Shakespeare is better than Marlow, Bach is better the Vivaldi etc. And there were heaps of educated people in the 18th century who could knock together a minuet but are forgotten and rightly so. And so on.
Play the gig. Write the commission. Get paid. Repeat.
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I found Greg Fishman's thoughts on licks and their relationship to language, lines and narrative to be helpful .
"1000 words off the top of my head about using licks...
Recently, someone asked me about licks and stated that "using licks is not improvising." I agree with that statement, but only to a point. After all, licks are like vocabulary. It's all in how you put things together in the moment.
Someone with a good vocabulary may or may not be a good writer / story teller. The same goes for licks. They can serve a useful purpose...I've used all of these words before, but I'm putting them together right now for this sentence. The way that I use words is the same way that I use musical vocabulary.
Hearing in harmonic context...hearing multiple ways of playing something, keeping track of what you just played, interacting with the musicians, using theme and variation, using voiceleading to tie everything together...that's improvising.
Licks are not improvisation, any more than a vocabulary list for a spelling bee is a poem or a story. And yet, someone that knows the meaning of the words, and how to use them spontaneously and in multiple contexts, can incorporate some of those words with others, off the top of their head to express an idea.
Licks provide stylized vocabulary. They can help you hear your way through a single chord or through a sequence of chords.
A solo should never just be a string of unrelated licks, just as a sentence should not be a list of random words in your vocabulary.
I find it valuable to create variations on any idea, lick or pattern.
A player should be skilled enough with his vocabulary so that a pattern or lick will fit in the beginning, middle or ending of a larger idea.
The key to using licks is to make it sound like you're not actually using any licks. If they’re going to be used at all, they should blend into the fabric of the solo.
I can remember back to my earliest days of study, figuring out my favorite Bird, Trane, Stitt licks, etc., and using them to understand how they approached hitting a particular chord or progression of chords.
I'm listening to Cannonball right now, and he's quoting Bird....it's vocabulary that you won't find by just playing scales or arpeggios. Licks are infused with the musical syntax of the great players of the past and present.
Studying licks or phrases is simply a way of getting a handle on the melodic, rhythmic and harmonic elements of the language. They serve a purpose by providing your ear with good examples of what it sounds like to clearly portray a chord or chord progression.
Even if you never play a “lick” in your solos, practicing licks/patterns in 12 keys can strengthen your connection with your horn and increase your technique and accuracy. Think about this…we practice scales constantly, but we wouldn’t just play an entire scale exercise in the middle of a solo. The scales and chords are also a part of our vocabulary. I think of the scales and chords as being non-stylized vocabulary, while the licks are stylized vocabulary.
If you were trying to force a particular word into a conversation, it would distract you from listening to the other person, and it will also distract your thoughts. It’s the same with licks. A solo needs to be developed as it’s happening. If, in the natural course of the solo, a phrase (lick) sounds like it fits easily and organically into the line you’re playing, and if it relates musically to what was just played, you can use it. On the other hand, if it’s a musical non sequitur, you need to avoid it and play something that better fits the context of the solo. It’s really the same as any spoken language. It’s about using the language to express yourself clearly.
One more thought on licks. When I was in first grade, I remember that a teacher didn’t like the way I pronounced some words. The teacher had me meet with a speech therapist just a couple of times. The speech therapist had me read through many lists of words, out loud, and she gave me feedback that helped me sharpen up my pronunciation.
Outside of that particular setting, I would never use those exact word lists again, and yet, they served a useful purpose, because they helped me improve the clarity with which I spoke.
I believe that licks can work in this way, as well. Whether you play them in your solos or not, working with them can help to make you a better player because they strengthen the connection between you and your instrument. The licks can help you address deficiencies both in your technique and in the way you hear things.
Everyone should take the time to develop their vocabulary. How do you get started? I started by borrowing (stealing) licks from the old masters, and then started coming up with my own. Start with a short lick of your own, maybe just over one or two chords. However, you should also try something in a larger format, like an etude over the form of a standard tune. The larger format will let you develop your ideas and see where they lead. You’ll need to decide just how long to develop an idea before it’s time to start with a new idea. This is really the act of composition. Whether you compose a two measure lick, a thirty-two bar tune, or a full symphonic work, the act of composing is the best thing for finding your musical identity.
If you look at any of the etudes in my jazz saxophone etudes series, you can see that, while I’m using mainstream swing/bebop jazz language and vocabulary, the etudes are not simply a string of stand-alone licks. There’s development and use of sequence, use of space. I tried to create well-balanced ideas that feel natural. Two of my old teachers encouraged me to write etudes: Alan Swain and Joe Henderson. Both described the process as a slow-motion way of improvising, where I could take the time to explore my musical choices, and that the etudes would give me a glimpse into the future as I would eventually be able to make those musical decisions in real-time as I improvise with a live group. That advice has served me very well over the years, and I recommend this same approach for my own students.
If you’re enjoying this article, and if these words are making sense to you, contact me via private message to schedule a Skype lesson and we can fully explore these concepts together. "0
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Doesn't 'trope' have special meaning in music? Originally Posted by christianm77
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@Christian
You know I am coming back to this topic because I feel I partly agree with you and emanresu and still... I feel that I diagree. And I wonder why?
And now thought that it's probably because this idea of 'lick application' in baroque from comparison with jazz practice moves us in aesthetical area..
Finding a well developed language with repeatedly used turnaounds, idioms and references to practice in the book you mentioned we begin to transfer it to aesthetics of composers... we begin to think that it was the way they thought.
Let's look at this another side... I am not composer, and I am not very well taught counterpoint master... but even I can compose a menuet or sarabanda or maybe even small fugue in baroque style just by ear... and I am sure many of those on this forume can if they just have enough experience of listening to this musec, patience and an ear... and compose it just from beginning to an end - without stacking together separate pieces of pre-composed music.
What then to say - not even about Bach or Corelli - but average baroque composers like Locatelli or Weiss or whoever else?
It is well known that they often made compilations using previous works... especially forced by practical reasons. Vivaldi even tried to sell the same operas twice - sending it to Mantova and hoping that they did not see it on stage in Venice)
But usually they borrowed from their own pieces a movement, a melody re-harmonized, sometimes a big section to a cadence but this usually already demanded some amendments because sections of one movement are connected, - this was the way they thought I believe.
They would never think of cadence as a separate cell or item because for them it was logical conclusion of the previous material...
They did not need these 'licks' because they would either compose a whole movement or borrow a whole movement.. otherwise it just did not make sense for them.
Of course during study they practiced modualtions or cadences but it's like painter who practices in drawing circles or cubes in perspective... it does not mean that Botticelli's or Michelangelo's paintings were made (and thought) as combination or geometrical figures.
Yes they used symbolism or motives and harmonies - like 'cross motive' or 'chromatic line' or key symbolism or quotes and genre references..
but it's absolutely different thing.. the same as vine and crops in on the painting - it's pure symbols.
the cadences have meanings - not necessarily to be verbalized but since we use words to communicate...
May I give an example?
Check please the first movement in the vid below
What's the most intresting part in int?
To me it's the cadence that happens when the piece returns to teh main key of C minor.. at 01:50 ... I dont know English term for this cadence (we call it 'intruded cadence) it's when ultimate note of the cadence coincides with the first of the next section... to me it's what makes this piece very interesting. But why?
Let's check what was going own before it...
the piece starts with strong arpeggio - a sort of reduced prelude, tuning... and after that the theme goes ended as it should be in dominant key of G minor
this arpeggio is repeated when the second section begins in G minor key so it follows the plan.
The second section is unstable but in this case it is quite long, you expect it to be resolved but he postpones it again and again... these modulating harmonies shift like shadows in front of us - it's gone it's here gone again...
and then he finally goes back to C - minor - you except this arppegio prelude again and boom!...
he goes directly to main theme .. and even makes this effect strong by orchestration - moving the theme to the basses!
And it dissolves the line between sections - we now cannot say for sure if it is two different sections of just one very long - sounds like it's both!
and then he repeats this prelude at the end as conclusion!
It's terrific - though we can easily identify these licks-bricks-whatever - it is impossible to compose using it.. on cant just compilate it.. it seems so simple and balanced but at the same time it has so many different perspectives simultaneously.. no words can express it (except maybe Shakespearean?))))
how can be a prelude at the end? the listner does not think of that maybe he grasps the meaning... his rational order is shaken... some other reality breaks in. And its' just a little piece of it..
But it would not work without the whole piece as it is. It grows like a tree..
Even if you disagree I am sure you'll enjoy the music
Last edited by Jonah; 07-14-2017 at 03:55 PM.
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One thing I firgot to mention..
the biggest difference from licks in jazz is that jazz licks are already clear and finished artisitic statements.
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Hey Jonah,
Thanks for the detailed reply.... I may not in fact have time to give this the attention it deserves, so I'll try and go through it at some other point.
-- some thinky BS ---
One thing I enjoy about Gjerdingen's work is that it takes 18th century music off its plinth and shows us something that feels very familiar - that this repertoire is the work of skilled artisans whose working conditions feel familiar across the centuries - even while some elements such as the social caste aspects of composition seem very alien.
The standard sort of response to baroque music - 'Ooooh isn't Bach amazing etc' is all very well, and I could hardly disagree as a listener, but it's also kind of sterile. I want to play around with music, come up with stuff, find commonalities. The Romantic concept of Art is the furthest thing from my mind when I am *doing* music. That's for the audience.
The relationship one might cultivate with the art of the past might seem to be to some extent disrespectful even, and I think that's a good thing. I think there is far too much respect - or more properly reverence - for the past (says the Barry Harris fan :-)) Basically, I personally will make use of whatever is available in whatever way I see fit.
Let's focus on something more relevant and away from the Lofty Monuments of Western High Art - swing feel. When I am looking to work on jazz phrasing, swing etc, I'm not actually interested in knowing whether or not something swings per se. What I want are things I can understand - how is Miles placing the upbeat? Where are the accents? etc. It can get really specific. Concrete stuff I can work on. The effect of the totality of this stuff - phrasing, upbeats etc etc - can be considered 'swing.'
So a complex relationship between holism and reductionism.
---shit you can practice ---
In terms of the OP's question, I was teaching today and we have been working a lot not on licks but applying basic material - arpeggios with passing tones - particularly m6 on dom7 stuff. But that's not terribly important of itself.
Anyway, the thing that becomes apparent with this kind of thing right away is that rhythmic vocabulary is the key. So when we listen to 'language' etc, it's good to listen to it through the filter of rhythm not pitch. Could you take a phrases from a solo you have transcribed, sing the rhythm in a monotone, and then play those rhythmic phrases fluently through the changes of another song?
I should really practice that myself. :-)Last edited by christianm77; 07-15-2017 at 09:28 AM.
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I'm used to seeing 'lick' and 'cliché' (as in 'line cliché'), but I hadn't seen 'trope' used for 'jazz'. Originally Posted by destinytot
One lives and learns, but it doesn't sit well with me (even if "tired old trope" alliterates nicely): Trope (music) - Wikipedia
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I think Christian meant it more in general sense - as it is used in literature for example Originally Posted by destinytot
Last edited by Jonah; 07-16-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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Thank you... Originally Posted by christianm77
Very true about totality of all musical parameter in concrete musical phrase ... I am trying to be specific too actually.. that's why when someone drops in baroque I try to go into detail.. offer a piece to analyze/
And of course about rythm being so often ignored in lick analysis - I agree too.
You see I mostly try to distinguish things - not even distinguish - I try to feel what feel) - to follow my nose - to listen to my perception carefulyl and to express what it brings to me - I think it's important to getif it's still the same essence or it's already another one... or maybe it's this toda - and that tommorow.. good to check t over all the time.
To find things in common is much easier and secondary for me.. Because commonality moves indivduality aside.. and individualty is what makes it living, personilized, unique...
it's the differences between jazz and baroque make both styles so livelly, it's more difficult but moves you to learn the subjet deeply...
And when we know the differences it's easy to find what it's in common, but usually you dont need them already, becasue they are good as they are - you know them too well to mix)))
It's just the way perception woks - we always shift from generalization to individualization and back.. it's the only way to keep it live in conventional terms of communication.
I think it's important - maybe each of us then goes to the instrument and it does nto affect him at all..
but here it's forum, we do not see each other, it's conversation where we use words I just try to make these words efficient. I feel resposible to keep it a bit in 'Platonian' way you know... )))
I understand it can be annoying sometimes)
In this case I was trying to go away from idea of 'cliche'. Because there's a risk that this term being easily thrown in turns all the basic conception into a wrong direction.
'Lick' in jazz is a typical melodic phrase, but we still have to remember all the licks came from personal vocabulary.
As I said there were (some still are) completed personal artistic statement... every mature jazz player understands this and tries - speaking in terms of licks))) - to come up with his own 'lick'.
Bop or swing licks lost in a great deal this individual feature due to very idiomatic landuage.
In one of the threads we tried to compare different players on the same tune.. and bop players to me could be mostly distinguished by sound or technique - not by phrases.
So using a lick is probably really a cliche...
Nothing liek that with classical harmony - cadences or modulation turnarounds etc. are individual, they are just the moments of form - I come again back to form.
'Cliche' in baroque time was the form as a whole. Nobody though of cadence as of cliche, but the way cadence was used in a form could turn the whole form in cliche. Hope I do not put it too messy...
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That was clear - and also surprising, because possible ambiguity makes it seem rather out of place when other (unambiguous, and more appropriate) words exist. Such as those in the OP. Originally Posted by Jonah
Sorry, but - as I'm fond of saying - "If you raise the level of the water, all the boats will rise."
EDIT: Buzzword Bingo: "C'mon, baby! I need 'nuanced'" Comment copied and pasted from another thread:
Quite a minefield... in my opinion the most compelling argument I've heard for why a player might need to acquire what I'm calling 'declarative knowledge' is so as not to be fooled or put off by critics and dissenters.Last edited by destinytot; 07-16-2017 at 10:35 AM.
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I went to a fundraising gig late last night - surf and rockabilly. The cause made it worthwhile. So did the company. I'd been playing beforehand, whereas the company had been (mostly) drinking. n
But 'in vino veritas': almost apologetically, the frontman told me that he wanted to sing in Spanish (instead of English, as he currently does).
I told him, "It doesn't matter what language you sing in, as long as you don't lie."
I believe the same goes for clichés and licks.Last edited by destinytot; 07-16-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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