Vb9b13 chord vs V13b9 chord

[princeplanet]

FWIW, I've been checking out some George Benson and it seems that he frequently uses H/W diminished resolving to minor - not a reason to make it a go-to choice, but at least a choice to consider (unless one is not into that whole Benson thing)

Yeah, but he can play anything over anything!

[jordanklemons]

Yeah, but he can play anything over anything!

Hahaha... in a session with Sco one time he was trying to prove that anything was possible. He asked the piano player to comp one tune, he blew over a different tune. He asked the pianist to play some McCoy Tyner modal stuff, and he blew over a tune. He just kept messing around with whatever. It all sounded super out... but it all killed.

Nothing wrong with that.

But still... rock solid harmony and grasp of function and tonality never hurts.

[christianm77]

I basically always reserve the 13b9 for a major resolution and the b13b9 generally for a minor resolution. Not 100% of the time. The 13b9 tonality always makes me feel like two lovers ballroom dancing and the man pushes the woman over, with his arm catching her, and dipping her and pausing (especially when the chord is used in rubato). The resolution to the major chord always gives a strong sense of the dance continuing fluidly. I just don't FEEL that same sense of the dance continuing when I resolve to a minor chord.

The b13b9, in my ear, can surely resolve to either major or minor very nicely, but I do think it's got just a bit more zap in the minor key. The b13 of the V chord resolves nicely to both the 9 and the M3 of the I chord.

I like the analogy.

Thinking about the history a bit...

Here is one of my favourites -

This variant is well used in the Gypsy Jazz community - 13 of the V7 or major 3rd of the key (F#) in the melody the b9 of the V7 or the b6 of the key (Bb) in the bass. It also works excellently for Bossa.

(In general with this type of thing I prefer to think from the key, because then it's easier to see how voice leading relates to for example IVm-I etc.)

Take a listen to the beautiful lines Django plays over the top.

Anyway, b13 into I major? Well that's the blues right?

(Check out the piano solo!!!!)

To me that b13 becomes a #5 and then you get this type of thing:

G7+5 C --> B7+5 C

Which you can hear in Duke.

And of course the have whole tone thing G9+5, favoured by Bud Powell among others as a major key dominant, too.

Anyway, the b9b13 thing is more minor key into major. Extremely common with Parker:

b9b13b5 - Altered....

[christianm77]

This is exactly the kind of reply I was expecting, and of course it would be hard for any of us to disagree (I especially like your cute analogy ). I suppose I was wondering if there were fans of the 13b9 resolving to a Minor tonic, If not I may start feeling as though it's a kinky fetish!

I'm a fan. I like it although I don't often use it.

It's just voice leading, no kink here officer. You might well have a cheeky major 9th in the minor key ii chord if you are a Bill Evans fan.

D F Ab C E
D F Ab B E
C Eb G Bb Eb

For instance

[princeplanet]

I'm a fan. I like it although I don't often use it.

It's just voice leading, no kink here officer. You might well have a cheeky major 9th in the minor key ii chord if you are a Bill Evans fan.

D F Ab C E
D F Ab B E
C Eb G Bb Eb

For instance

Ya, that's what I find myself doing, it makes the 13 sound more "intentional" if it's telegraphed early. In fact , HW can be played over both the iim7b5 and the V13b9. The same way that you just force V over ii in major cadences....

[princeplanet]

Hey thanks Christian and Fuzz, great to hear examples!

And yeah, not so kinky, but with Bill Evans being such a dark horse, who knows how kinky he liked to get...

Funny, when I was young I saw pics of Bill from that era and thought he looked almost comically "square". Now I just see impossibly "cool", and guys from the 70's (the ones I thought were cool) look, well, just comical.... Must be just me, right?

[princeplanet]

My very fave solo from Cannon - been meaning to analyse it carefully one day, but didn't want to kill the mystery of it!

[christianm77]

I will check out the Cannonball solo. Dim vocabulary might be very likely with him....

Charlie Christian often used dom9 sounds going into minor chords.