Herb Ellis Book..question

**guitarplayer007** · 10-19-2007, 07:12 PM

Anyone ever use Herb Ellis Rhythm Shapes? Its really a book on soloing.
Thx
Ken

**Dirk** · 10-25-2007, 02:14 PM

Never had it in my hands. Is it good? I'm not really a Herb Ellis fan.

- Dirk

**604bourne123** · 01-17-2011, 01:57 AM

I could tell you where to look it over but I have to let you find out for yourself kind of cool book before he died.

**Dark Star** · 01-17-2011, 02:11 AM

I used to have Blues Shapes & it was a great resource. I lost the tape for it & am now looking for it again. I recently received Swing Blues as a gift & it's pretty good; not the same stuff as Blues Shapes, though. I'm still looking for that.
I'm guessing that Blues Shapes was put out around the same time as Rhythm Shapes. It is Herb w/Terry Holmes?

**604bourne123** · 01-17-2011, 02:25 PM

Amazon lets you peek in to swing blues as to the others don't know.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-17-2011, 03:31 PM

I have all three of those books---Swing Blues, Rhythm Shapes, and All The Shapes You Are. (I've never heard of "Blues Shapes"--perhaps that was an earlier incarnation of what is now called "Swing Blues.")

All three books focus on playing lines out of simple chord shapes. "Swing Blues" focuses on three settings: blues in C, F, and a slow blues in Bb. (Five-six choruses for the first two, three for the slow blues.)
"Rhythm Shapes" focuses on 40 8-bar phrases--(-handling both the A and B sections out of various shapes, and combining two or more). It concludes with a two-chorus solo with several tricky bits in it.
All The Shapes presents "vamps" on each chord in the tune (-All The Things You Are). That is, Herb plays 8-10 measures on each chord in turn, giving you lots of ways to handle each one. (As most of the chords in the tune repeat, he treats them out of different shapes.) This set also concludes with a two-chorus solo that "puts it all together."
I've learned more *theory* elsewhere, but I've learned more *music* from these three books (-well, I'm just starting the All The Shapes volume) than any other three I could name.
A big caveat concerns the way Herb played. I love it but not everyone does. If you want to sound like Pat Martino or Pat Metheny (-not that there's anything wrong with it!), this won't be much help to you. But if you love swinging, singing lines, this is a great place to learn how to make 'em!

**Dark Star** · 01-17-2011, 05:10 PM

Blues Shapes is not the same material as Swing Blues.

**604bourne123** · 01-17-2011, 05:33 PM

why does Herb Ellis not as liked as others in the master guitar players of the world.Is it because of the shapes being limited in form that causes the music to be predicable in each and every time thus there is a boring feeling.I'am just curious.

**Dark Star** · 01-17-2011, 06:26 PM

Herb Ellis "not liked"? I've never heard that before. Admittedly, he's got an older style (shared w/many other jazz guitarists), but I think he's always enjoyed a certain popularity.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-17-2011, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Star

Blues Shapes is not the same material as Swing Blues.

Wow, I'd never seen that. I'd like to check it out. By the way, I *think* Terry Holmes appears on "All The Shapes You Are" with a lesson no how to comp those changes.

**604bourne123** · 01-17-2011, 10:40 PM

What I,am trying to say is that Markerhodes mentions that his playing is not liked as much as others what is it in the music that defines his distastes and loves,maybe its too personal to discuss over the internet or were not really bandmates whatever.It seems when you talk about different musicians you got to know why you do or don't like a piece of music to justify you're decision.If you can't explain why how can you communicate to anybody about anything.

**Sailor** · 01-17-2011, 11:58 PM

Just bought swing blues...shapes...not really diggin' it! It's kind of a different approach and his shape use is a little confusing.

Sailor

**604bourne123** · 01-18-2011, 01:14 AM

what is confusing ?

**orasnon** · 01-18-2011, 03:05 AM

I'm kinda agreeing with ppl that are tentative about the "shapes approach." I have the Ellis Rhythm Changes book, and while he outlines the visual shapes where he derives the notes from, the actual solos seem to veer considerably from the original shapes. In other words, so many notes away from the shape: I wonder if you should just learn the scales rather than the shapes. I ended up memorizing some of the solos, but in the final analysis didn't depend on the shape when trying to improvise, but instead just mimicking the style of the memorized solo...So I guess it depends on what you deem to be instructive on a heuristic level...

**MarkRhodes** · 01-18-2011, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by orasnon

I have the Ellis Rhythm Changes book, and while he outlines the visual shapes where he derives the notes from, the actual solos seem to veer considerably from the original shapes.

Right. They come out of shapes but they're not JUST shapes. Otherwise, they'd be arpeggios. When you visualize the shapes while playing the lines, you get comfortable with how lines lay out in each of those areas of the neck, and how to move from one to the other.

It really clicks when you transpose the lines to other keys, or try to play part of one line (-say, the first four bars) with part of another (-the second four bars).

**bass2man** · 01-18-2011, 09:03 PM

Herb Ellis...as a player, great...as a teacher..not so much. His books are basicaly "I use these three shapes plus the Chromatic scale (!!!) and play my lines"....great resource for endless blues and RC licks though.

Herb fills the gap between Christian and his contemparies, Barney Kessel and Joe Pass...he has great duet albums with those guys...and you can really hear how much more sophisticated their harmonies were compared to Ellis...better? Nope ( IMHO). He had endless melodic swinging lines...not boring to my ears at all...a master at this type of playing blues and RC type tunes..good enough for Oscar Peterson..

If you like that type of playing check out George Barnes or Hank Garland

**604bourne123** · 01-18-2011, 09:51 PM

All three have different styles.

**Sailor** · 01-18-2011, 09:57 PM

I guess it's already been stated...the shapes and solos are as different as they are the same. I just think the shapes of the scales do the same thing.

Sailor

**MarkRhodes** · 01-19-2011, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by bass2man

His books are basicaly "I use these three shapes plus the Chromatic scale (!!!) and play my lines"....great resource for endless blues and RC licks though.

A great resource for endless blues and rhythm changes lines sounds to me like two-thirds of what a jazz guitarist needs. The other third is knowing how to play over standards, which Herb covers in "All The Shapes You Are."

I think Herb's approach--which is admittedly old fashioned--focuses more on making music with one's instrument than with *explaining* music. Some people prefer learning the chord / scale way. What I think Herb teaches is how to play swinging lines that sing. If you learn those lines and learn to sing them, put them to work, you'll improve as a *player* and start singing your own lines, which you will be able to voice on the guitar. It's the way most of the great jazz players up through the '60s learned to play: through imitation.