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"Is choice really involved when you can't play a tune... to not play the tune. I'm thinking out loud... please don't take me wrong. It's not a perspective that I understand. I've always felt I owe the music as compared to the music owes me."
@ Reg, to be fair, he didn't say he couldn't, just that he wouldn't play a tune he didn't like. Of course if you don't like a tune chances are you're not going to learn it.
Here is his post:
"If I won't play a tune, I'll let it be out of choice; I won't put anyone down, and I may choose to not give a reason, but I won't play music I don't love - the true prerogative of the amateur, as in 'one who loves'... (I can hear Ron Isley/Phil Perry/Luther Vandross riffing on that as I write...) "
P.S. highlighting is mine.Last edited by edh; 03-28-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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03-28-2015 06:20 PM
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03-28-2015, 06:22 PM #27destinytot Guest
[QUOTE=Patrick2;515296]
Originally Posted by destinytot
But thank you for challenging me on this, Patrick2.
What I object to has nothing to do with elements of music per se, but everything to do with what happens when tunes take on new meaning.
Music is a cultural tool. Much music is liberating, which I celebrate. Sometimes, however, it is constraining - and I consider it to be beneath my dignity to participate in its proliferation.
I wouldn't think it shoud be beneath any musicians dignity to play any music
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Originally Posted by yaclaus
Conception - check out Miles Davis 'Deception' on Birth of the Cool (it's virtually the same tune). Miles plays quite a simple melodic solo I think.
Also check out out versions by Chet Baker - he did a few. Always very melodic and flowing.
Jordu - Clifford Brown, also check what Duke Jordan does with it (he wrote it!) - I think his version is on youtube somewhere.
Inner Urge - I guess Joe Henderson is the best place to look. Some of his solo is probably unplayable on the guitar, but some parts are more straightforward.
Monk - loads of versions out there - take your pick!
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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I remember trying to play over "difficult changes" too early and playing complete BS. I went back to playing simpler changes and gradually I added slightly more complex changes.
If I can't hear the changes, I certainly won't be able to create good improv over the changes.
It's all in the ears.
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Just break it down section by section or sub-section. Nothing is too difficult if you know how to approach it.
Liking or disliking a tune is often no more than understanding it and being able to or not being able to play it. Every tune can be a challenge and fun most often. Being able to negotiate the changes is one of the more basic steps to being able to play a tune. Style, timing and vocabulary are much more important.
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For myself I don't particularly listen other people versions. I actually I never do this when learning a tune. I just play through the changes and hear it the way I hear it.
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To the OP,
TRIADS. Yep, that's my whole answer, TRIADS.
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Just to keep Henrys comments in perspective... and I apologize Henry if I'm assuming... Henry believes in his ears, his instincts, he trust himself.... at least he accepts what he performs. Generally don't need to be shown, need to hear or taught how a tune goes... already been there.
We seem to be just talking about difficult, not new... I also trust what I play, I don't need to rehearse or know what tunes, arrangements etc...I'm going to play at gig, session or whatever. I'm well aware that there are many better guitarist but know that what I hear and perform will add to the performance and realization of the tunes.
edh... yea I agree... but my comments were about.... you can't play the tune. We're talking about difficult tunes... and the fact that many can't play the tunes...
Not because they choose to not play them because they don't feel like it... for whatever reason, don't like, cultural, below dignity, they suck..whatever reason... they can't play them yet.
At some point, you don't have to learn a tune to be able to perform the tune.
There seems to be different understandings about performing jazz, no right or wrong, just different.... I don't need to learn a tune to be able to perform the tune, I understand the music, the styles of music.
I did post short aspects about tunes OP listed.. I'll posts some more... You need to be able to make quick on the spot analysis of tunes...
Countdown... don't just try and make the changes... understand the changes, memorizing lines to play through the changes... doesn't teach you whats going on. What are the lines implying... Like I said before.. it's a sequence of a three tonic system. Bb to Gb to D. with V's to each.... then down a whole step.... same chord pattern and then down a whole step again. Then recap or reinforcement of reference tonality D.
There are more harmonic details... subs, modal interchange etc... but that's it
Conception... Pretty straight ahead... A A B A... Use of Relative maj/min and extended Dominant, and their subs and of course II V's. Some think of a two tonic system... Db and E but personally the relative harmonic relationships feel more natural
Jordu's the same concepts, just not as complicated.
Impressions...again Jazz modal concepts of organization... I've posted a million times.
Monk straight ahead except for the rhythmic organization.
Inner urge... all Henderson tunes have a few harmonic and melodic relationships going on, usually deceptive or camouflaged harmony... but basic changes, and he always looks for different methods of organizing the changes, many times using Pentatonic note collections for root motion with modal harmony on top. His tunes usually have different options... that's one of the cool and enjoyable aspects of performing them... they can have different results.
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03-29-2015, 03:28 PM #35destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by Reg
Whether I know a song or not, I try to please customers by taking requests on solo gigs at restaurants, but I play (rather than sing) so that I'm getting value from testing whether I can work tunes out quickly on the spot. I've learned to recover quickly when I mess up. However, if I'm clear about what I'm trying to do, I don't usually mess up; I play with conviction, enthusiasm and expression.
My point is that having a precise understanding of what's going on would be as important to overcoming difficulties with the changes of Giant Steps as it would be to those of Happy Birthday.Last edited by destinytot; 03-29-2015 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Clarity
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There are some tunes that I really do not like. Giant Steps, Cherokee - come to mind. Even the recent tune of the month - All Of You - just doesn't intrigue me at all. If you are getting paid to play, it's one thing. But unless there is monetary or some other incentive....
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03-29-2015, 06:31 PM #37destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by targuit
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I'll go back and read the other comments in a second, but I just wanted to say, that for something commonplace, I've always found rapid dominant cycles very difficult. I really do need to work on them more.
Dominant cycles are far more likely to turn up in non douche bag repetoire :-) (no offense, but many of us feel anyone who calls Conception or Countdown without giving time to prepare is in a sense a douchebag, on the other hand we earnestly prepare fearing the hour of the douchebag may be upon us. Possibly it is because my angry young man jam session days are behind me. Alternatively, it's like war. It won't be me who starts 26-2, but by god, I'll finish it.)
Even short cycles, such as that in Lulu's Back in Town (VI7 II7 V7 I) I find tricky, let alone the long cycle in Jordu. Maybe I'll practice Jordu tomorrow.
And then you have the cycle dominant in Rhythm Changes F#7 B7 E7 A7 D7 G7 C7 F7 Bb Bo7 CM7 F7 for the A....
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Originally Posted by targuit
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Originally Posted by targuit
All of You is a very pretty melody. The changes are pretty straightforward - a lot of minor to major things as we often get with Cole Porter. Cole Porter's songs are my favourites though.
I do like Cherokee, in part because it's actually pretty straightforward on guitar, at least at medium up tempos - slow harmonic changes, all stock progressions.
It's a big deal for horn players because of the key changes in bridge on the -gasp!- sharp side of the cycle. IRC Bird was particularly great at getting around it apparently because he made a point of practicing everything he learned in all 12 keys because no one told that he really didn't need to.
Also Cherokee was written by a chap from my hometown, Brighton, so I feel a degree of tribal solidarity.Last edited by christianm77; 03-29-2015 at 08:32 PM. Reason: got I Love You confused with All of You ;-)
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03-29-2015, 07:42 PM #41destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by christianm77
I really like Confirmation, so I'll definitely put studying that one on the To Do list.
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03-29-2015, 07:48 PM #42destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by pushkar000
Have you heard Freddie on this? (Love Ralph Moore's tenor, too.)
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Originally Posted by pushkar000
If I play a bop head on one of my trio gigs, it'll usually be something a little less stock - I like Dewey Square, Airmail Special and Dexterity, for example, - or one of my own bop heads. So yeah, I kind of know what you mean.
I don't mind blowing the cobwebs off and making mistakes though, but I always feel that you should try and make music with the people you are playing with - and I find it's usually better music to play something everyone knows well (unless you are all up for pushing the envelope a little for fun, not always the best move on a gig....)
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Originally Posted by destinytot
I have not heard of Ralph Moore - he is a great player.
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Originally Posted by destinytot
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I like this video - very beautiful lines I think on GS. Great lesson BTW....
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Originally Posted by christianm77
its a catchy tune, and its fun. I don't get the "exercisy" comments at all.
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Well I shall beg to differ. I have ex-flamates who find this hilarious (me running GS was a running joke at one point - I think I spent a few years running it ad nauseum) but I think I am heartily sick of it. (Not to mention my flatmates haha.)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
It boils down to I(and generally everyone I play with) can't really do much more than run arps or licks over some of these tunes. Since we're all sounding pretty mechanical and hence on the same playing field, I guess its alright for us to play the tune, but its like everybody is a backing track for the soloist to practice on - what fun is that?
But I generally try to accept and and am glad to hang with whatever other cats want to play (as long as I can make it through acceptably enough), playing with other people is all about give and take.
I also enjoy the less stock heads more. I am slowly trying to get exposed to more bebop so I can kind of get a deeper understanding of the whole thing. I will check out the tunes you mentioned.Last edited by pushkar000; 03-29-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by pushkar000
I've made a lot of progress with this, but my ability to play head x in all 12 at tempo on the gig is not yet there. But it's fun working on it. But my ability to regurgitate Donna Lee by rote tends to get less attention. Hopefully it'll all be worth it in the long run :-)
Some cats get this down in their teens :-)
Just going through the Barry Harris videos makes me realise how deep it goes.
BTW: If you want a list of bebop tunes, I can PM you the list I've been working through over the last year or three. I think learning as many heads as you can by ear is something I should have done ages ago. There are also mistakes in some published sources that are interesting when you spot them.
If you have any familiarity with swing repertoire, many if not most bop tunes are based on earlier tunes, not all of them well known to modern players.Last edited by christianm77; 03-29-2015 at 09:11 PM.
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