How do i develope speed

[fumblefingers]

Yes, Jazz greats usually are geniuses in their own respective fields.

We are talking around in circles with no specifics. So fine. Every “great” is also a “genius”.


Maybe it's not hard to understand what and how Wes played nowadays, several DECADES after his reign. But in his time, people had no idea what the hell he was doing, and still now I find myself completely lost in it, and not worried about it at all because he made it work.


Ever tried to transcribe Wagner or Stravinsky to see what “the hell” they were doing? Yeah Wes was great. I didn’t know that we were focusing on him in particular. It seems instead that you were talking in absolutes. Regardless, you are talking about urban blues here. Get a grip.

To play fast guitar is not easy in jazz because of the changes. You can play blazing jazz licks all day, but putting them together over a set of chord changes is just a completely different ball game. That's why I think it's a difficult subject.

Never said that playing it was easy. But analyzing it is not rocket science, per my above comments. Urban blues, buddy.


Yes, Classical pieces have changes, but they read form an unchanging chart and practice the same EXACT solo time after time after time. MUCH different than playing the changes on the fly however you so desire to.


BS. Not if you are a modest player, like Jim Hall or Grant Green. How familiar are you with the virtuoso classical guitar repertoire?


Yes, a solo IS a composition, and yes it is an improvisation. It's spontaneous composition, that's what makes it beautiful.


It’s usually referred to extemporaneous, but if you want to call it spontaneous, that’s fine. Either one is an adjective. So we agree then. Simply stated, it’s not composition.


You'll be surprised at how far transcribing solos will take you! Did Wes not learn to play by transcribing Charlie’s solo's by ear? Did Stevie Ray Vaughan not learn with similar tactics? If you pick apart and learn every Bird solo, dissect them and learn from them you'll become a much greater player.

Who’s surprised? Not me. It really helps, doesn’t it?

[TommyD]

I don't know much, but I know this; fumblefingers should lighten up. Being pugnacious doesn't convince anybody.

[musicjohnny]

Originally Posted by TommyD

I don't know much, but I know this; fumblefingers should lighten up. Being pugnacious doesn't convince anybody.

+1

[fumblefingers]

ok i've lightened up. i hope i may be forgiven.

and in turn i'll forgive the enthusiastic and overly emphatic comments from a precocious person, who knows not whereof he speaks.

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

ok i've lightened up. i hope i may be forgiven.

and in turn i'll forgive the enthusiastic and overly emphatic comments from a precocious person, who knows not whereof he speaks.

You couldn't resist, could you?

[Digit]

Practice at SLOW tempo (80 BPM) with a metronome. Don't just practice scales linearly - use patterns as well - set the metronome at the speed in which you can comfortably play the most complicated pattern, cleanly and evenly. That will be your starting speed for ALL your practice.

Start in 8th notes - accent the 1 of each beat - then accent the 'and' of each beat. Move to 8th note triplets. Again, vary the accent (1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc...) - Move to 16th notes and do the same with the accents (1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, etc...). If you use a pick, alternate up/down - start with UP and then start with DOWN on the next root, etc...

If you do this, SLOWLY, and precisely, for at least 2hr per day, you WILL see your speed increase within a week.

[PerpetualGatman]

I think that you should do the whole practise lines slowly and precise to develop your muscle memory etc
but to actually play fast you should simply just do it. What i mean by that is for example you put a metonome or a backing track to 200bpm and try play 16 notes to it just straight off. don't worry about cleanness or even accuracy to start off. Once you've gotten over the shock of playing at that speed then the following times you go to it it will seem possible, and achievable.
This is what me and a jazz guitarist you may or may not have heard of Bruce Forman concluded with after a discussion on the same topic hope that helped!

Bix

[Digit]

Originally Posted by PerpetualGatman

don't worry about cleanness or even accuracy to start off.

Bix

What I do is, practice slow and at the end of each pattern cycle, play ONE pattern double time. Then, to back to slow - and repeat.

However, I totally disagree with the suggestion above. Playing fast is not a musical thought in and of itself, the notes that you play are. Thus, if you can't play them cleanly, accurately and ABOVE ALL, in a totally relaxed manner then, it's totally pointless.

Speed is in the relaxation not tension. Suggesting to play dirty and inaccurate is in fact suggesting to be tense.

[PerpetualGatman]

Originally Posted by Digit

What I do is, practice slow and at the end of each pattern cycle, play ONE pattern double time. Then, to back to slow - and repeat.

However, I totally disagree with the suggestion above. Playing fast is not a musical thought in and of itself, the notes that you play are. Thus, if you can't play them cleanly, accurately and ABOVE ALL, in a totally relaxed manner then, it's totally pointless.

Speed is in the relaxation not tension. Suggesting to play dirty and inaccurate is in fact suggesting to be tense.

Hey mate, yeah i agree with what you say and i fully see where you're coming from.
my suggestion wasn't really to say that he should just play fast for the sake of it or even just play whatever at speed just so he can say he can play fast, I was more suggesting how he can approach getting used to playing fast and not running into the 'oh crap that tempo is too fast and it is IMPOSSIBLE to play to'.
hope you see what i mean?

[Digit]

I understood what you meant but, I still disagree

If you play inaccurately and 'dirty' that means that it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE for you play at that speed. If anything it would encourage people to play inaccurately and without coherent thought and phrasing.

I believe on the other hand that playing one pattern at the end of each cycle at double time would at least give an idea of 'how far' one is from the desired goal.

But, on thing we haven't talked about is this: speed is in the thought, not the hands. If one doesn't think fast phrases one can't play them, even if technically proficient. Thought is the most important element in improvisation. One is in fact composing on the spot. In order to play 8th notes at 300 bpm you have first and foremost be able to THINK them. Otherwise...what are you playing?

[PerpetualGatman]

to merge what i was saying to your 'speed is in the thought' idea.
I guess that is what i was more trying to put across. If they have gotten used to extreme speeds then they will ultimately be able to think fast phrases and therefore be more likely to execute them, after practicing their chops of course. Agreed?

[C.A.JO.]

Originally Posted by PerpetualGatman

Hey mate, yeah i agree with what you say and i fully see where you're coming from.
my suggestion wasn't really to say that he should just play fast for the sake of it or even just play whatever at speed just so he can say he can play fast, I was more suggesting how he can approach getting used to playing fast and not running into the 'oh crap that tempo is too fast and it is IMPOSSIBLE to play to'.
hope you see what i mean?

I agree. It's an advanced practice technique, though. It shouldn't replace slow and correct practice.

But to say that if you can't play it accurate at a fast speed, then you can't play it at all, is wrong.

If you only practice slow and gradually build up speed you WILL stall at some point. The usual places are (with 16th notes) at 120-130 bpm, and later at 140-160 bpm.

After these speeds one needs to push the envelope every once in a while. And to actually "go over top" is a well known practice technique. It functions in a psychological fashion, because the student experience the feeling of playing at this fast speed. Maybe it's a mess, and sounds dirty, but it shows that the speed is attainable, it just needs to be "cleaned up". Virtuoso guitarists such as John Petrucci, Tom Hess, Shawn Lane recommends this practice technique to be used every once in a while.

I usually explain my students that you can compare this practice technique to a race runner's practice routine. On the track you don't get faster at trying to run slow. Sometimes you have to give it all you got. It's naturally a mixture of the two approaches.

I don't recommend this approach unless you already are an advanced student.

[EinarG]

YouTube - Hal Galper's Master Class - Technique, Part 1

Speed is in the brain, not in the hans. Very interesting

[Jaffey]

007, you said that you don't have the chops needed to play jazz. Keep working with metronome. Daily. You may reach a point where you just simply cannot get any faster. That's okay. Look at John Scofield. he admits that his technique isn;t that good. He simply cannot pick every note fast. But he has a great legato and can burn in a moment's notice. I struggled with left/right co-ordination for 15 years. I finally threw the towel in and began working on a more legato approach. I pick about 65-7-% of the notes. My playing has never been better. Plus, the legato approach makes the lines I play more fluid. Have you tried NOT picking all the notes ? Just a thought.

[ejwhite09]

If you can't get good, get fast, if you can't get fast get good. Seriously speed matters dick if you ain't good...the last thing you wanna be is someone who plays badly fast, I mean you're on the jazz guitar forum not the metal guitar forum

[musicjohnny]

If you suck and learn to play fast....

you'll suck faster. =P

[bass2man]

Dont mean to sound like a jerk here, but why do you want to play fast?

Autumn leaves sounds better at 160 Bpms than at 120?

Before playing guitar I played bass for 30 years..I can tell you that the guitarists that I played with that had great groove/swing, good notes and sycopation in their playing were a lot more interesting to listen too (and play with) than the speed demons...

[blkjazz]

Originally Posted by bass2man

Dont mean to sound like a jerk here, but why do you want to play fast?

Autumn leaves sounds better at 160 Bpms than at 120?

Before playing guitar I played bass for 30 years..I can tell you that the guitarists that I played with that had great groove/swing, good notes and sycopation in their playing were a lot more interesting to listen too (and play with) than the speed demons...

Indeed.

[Reg]

We've moved on from how to develop speed... which is a direct relationship to good technique.... to why one needs "speed"... With out the ability to sub-divide, which requires speed, fairly simple jazz grooves don't lock. One doesn't need to rip off 16th notes endlessly, but one does need to be able to break down beats and accent on 16th note accent patterns, grooves. Medium tunes up to 170 or 180, use 16th note sub-divisions all the time. And up tunes, 240 and up usually only require 8th note sub-divisions. Most of the time your counting or feeling in 2 on the up tunes... What happens with players who haven't developed their technique of playing " fast " yet.... is the tunes don't groove and almost always slow down... with players who have developed their "fast " playing chops, the tunes will lock and stay at tempo, maybe speed up.
This is an observation from years of playing as well as what I believed to be obvious when I was a young lad.
When players with the ability to play " fast ", play up tempo tunes, they don't feel as though there up tempo, the tunes are relaxed, and when we play ballads... this really isn't a debate subject... good technique is required to play jazz. One can start playing jazz and enjoy the music with out " speed " and maybe never really develop chops... The music is still great, but your limiting your options as to what tunes you can play. If your still young enough... get your chops up... It does require a plan which may take more time than most want to commit, it's like sight reading...we can talk about it all we want... but it doesn't happen with out putting in the time. Best Reg

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by Reg

We've moved on from how to develop speed... which is a direct relationship to good technique.... to why one needs "speed"... With out the ability to sub-divide, which requires speed, fairly simple jazz grooves don't lock. One doesn't need to rip off 16th notes endlessly, but one does need to be able to break down beats and accent on 16th note accent patterns, grooves. Medium tunes up to 170 or 180, use 16th note sub-divisions all the time. And up tunes, 240 and up usually only require 8th note sub-divisions. Most of the time your counting or feeling in 2 on the up tunes... What happens with players who haven't developed their technique of playing " fast " yet.... is the tunes don't groove and almost always slow down... with players who have developed their "fast " playing chops, the tunes will lock and stay at tempo, maybe speed up.
This is an observation from years of playing as well as what I believed to be obvious when I was a young lad.
When players with the ability to play " fast ", play up tempo tunes, they don't feel as though there up tempo, the tunes are relaxed, and when we play ballads... this really isn't a debate subject... good technique is required to play jazz. One can start playing jazz and enjoy the music with out " speed " and maybe never really develop chops... The music is still great, but your limiting your options as to what tunes you can play. If your still young enough... get your chops up... It does require a plan which may take more time than most want to commit, it's like sight reading...we can talk about it all we want... but it doesn't happen with out putting in the time. Best Reg

The trouble with this theory (for that's what it is) is that many players, once they learn how to play fast, use it as a substitute for everything else an artist is supposed to think about and employ in their playing, and their playing becomes trite and pedestrian. Surprisingly, despite his reputation as one of the fastest guitarists ever, Tal Farlow told me this.
I agree completely with Bassman (above).
tommy/

[jbraun002]

Hmmm, while I agree with you TommyD, and bassman, I have yet to personally see a lot of jazz guitar players (esp. amateurs) who actually have this problem. In my experience, technical pedagogy seems to be so bad that I rarely hear anyone playing convincing double-time lines on the guitar in the jazz jams I attend. This is anecdotal, of course, but then again, isn't almost everything on these boards?

Ergo, I'm in the Reg camp here. I know that for myself it has only been since I really tightened up my picking that I can comfortably play long, connected, meaningful lines over progressions. Focusing on my technique has been a major boon to me personally.

[Reg]

Hey Tommy D... yea it is a theory... but it is also from experience, I play gigs, on average, five a week, I host at least one jazz jam a month. Have taught college level music and directed many amateur ensembles... I don't teach now because I don't want to... Are you suggesting to not develop chops, or what ever we want to call good technique... that's hard to understand. I'm simply saying it's one of the many requirements of Jazz musicianship... and is very noticeable when lacking, just as most skills would be. This is from lots of experience... It's not a lot of fun, and it's difficult to even get to the point of being artistic playing tunes like Autumn Leaves at 120.... Glad to hear your playing going well jbrau007... Best Reg

[C.A.JO.]

Originally Posted by Reg

this really isn't a debate subject... good technique is required to play jazz.

I agree.

I really can't get the idea of not wanting to have good technique. Like I've said many times before in this post and in others, speed is just a byproduct of good technique. To develop it shift focus from wanting to get faster, to play without excessive tension.

Good technique is "dead" in itself. Without music you can't use your technique, and you can't play music without technique. It's all part of the same picture, and you limit your means of expression without good technique, period.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by Reg

... good technique is required to play jazz.

Not all jazz needs to be top-flight music. There are a lot of players who just get by in terms of technique, but can still get across to an audience. I'm really thinking of the trad jazz I cut my teeth on, where the important thing is that the audience should have a good time, but Chet Baker would be a fair example as well - not that his technique sucked, but you could hardly say he was brimming over with resources.

...but it doesn't happen with out putting in the time.

Absolutely.

[billyj]

After years of trying to play fingerstyle a la Chet Atkins, I would like to know if it is too late to learn speed and basic jazz guitar as discussed in this post (by the way, I am 69 so I probably don't have a lot of time left to learn before arthritis or something terrminal sets in). Any thoughts on getting me past the boom-chuck style-maybe a book or DVD that would help me with the fundamentals of speed and basic chords? I am relatively new to this fourm so if my questions are out of line in this post about speed, please just consider it the onset of dementia or the ravings of an old jazz wannaber!

[AlexMeola]

I don't want to read all the comments did someone already tell you about Al di Meola's book "Picking Techniques"? It's a really good book for improving your alternate picking skills

[billyj]

Alex, you are the only one who has replied. Thanks for the info on Al D's book. I will try to get a copy this weekend. Thanks again.

Billy

[franamico]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer007

Are there any books i should get to really develope my speed for soloing and chord playing. I feel i'm lacking in the speed department. My speed is'nt awful but not what it should be for jazz.
thanks
Ken

Don't worry too much about your speed man...

However your "lack of speed" comes from your timing...

This is what you can do immediately:

1) Get a 1 bar phrase in just eight notes.
2) Play it at a speed that feels really comfortable
3) Once you feel really relaxed while playing it, play the same phrase in sixteen notes.

Also practice with 2-bar lines etc...

After you're done (30 min?) do something else...chill...

After each practice session spend some time playing just for the fun of it...
Relax...relax...relax...
Your timing will become stronger and stronger, and you'll feel in the middle of a solo where it's right to speed up and where it's right to play slow lines...

Take Care
F.

[KShri]

Sometimes things aren't where you want them to be. This sounds like a hurdle to me. We all face them where suddenly you hit a wall and don't know how to get any further.

Don't worry. Just don't put the instrument away for good.

One thing about speed is that it takes both hands. The problem is that one hand may be more proficient than the other. Solution? Take one hand away!

The right hand is a little easier to correct. There are only so many reasonable picking patterns that you will come across for the right hand. Just like an athlete develops strength and dexterity, they sometimes do it through an exercise that isolates a certain muscle in the body.

A really good exercise is to practice alternate picking (RH alone) across all six strings. This helps isolate your right hand and allow you to focus on this area. It could be you right hand that is holding your speed issues back. Can you pick all six up and down with a metronome with no problems? Good stuff. If not... well you know what you need to do.

If your right hand is good already, then awesome. Here could be another problem: not synchronizing both of the hands. Sometimes one moves faster than the other, or slower. You want your picking strokes to match exactly when you place your finger upon the next fret.

A simple exercise to test how synchronized your hands are is to run a 4 note chromatic scale on any string and see well they really match up at various tempos.

Good luck on jumping this hurdle!

[billyj]

Thanks guys. Looks like you have some good ideas for me so I need to get busy if I want to get to your level. Thanks so much. If I ever make it big, I'll acknowledge your help. Billy