Are you heavily influenced by horn players?

[FZ2017]

Next week is gonna be John Coltrane and Dexter Gordon!

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[Thumpalumpacus]

As a young guitarist wanting to play rock -- but not adept at all in it -- I read an interview with Ritchie Blackmore, where he extolled the virtues of learning sax lines. His reasoning was that the need to breath was a big influence on phrasing. Being a young aspiring rock'n'roller, I promptly filed-and-forgot that.

Fast forward a few years, had some rock chops going on but was sounding very generic even to my own ears. Just getting into Steely Dan, and taking up jazz lessons, I sat down and did half-assed studies on solos from Shorter (Weather Report stuff) and "Deacon Blues". I didn't, couldn't nail those; my skills were still unfit for those demands. But what it taught me about phrasing is something I carry to this day.

The other thing I did, and still do sometimes, is sing my solos when I'm going at it. It helps keep that rock tendency to speed-before-melodicism in check, as well as provide metrics on my ears-to-fingers connection.

[Bobalou]

I've got a book in the "archives" that helped me a lot when I was first really delving into jazz improv. It was full of jazz lines of the great jazz sax players, trumpet players, and piano players. It had lines from all the great horn players, Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Freddy Hubbard, Dexter Gordon, Miles, Joe Henderson, Micheal Brecker, and many many more. It had lines from many great jazz pianists too but honestly the horn lines seemed to translate better to guitar IMHO, YMMV. Though I did pull some very nice lines from the Herbie Hancock and Bill Evans sections . It actually really helped me a lot when I was just developing a style to see what was going over turnarounds. I, vi, ii, V and other progressions. It had a cool little section on some of Coltrane's "wall of sound" techniques for jazz lines too. I still have the book tucked away in "the archives" but haven't used it in years. Like most I think I tended to rip off more from other guitarists but heck yea horn players play some super cool hip stuff that can work great when translated to guitar.

[TF]

I memorized "Donna Lee" and I found that a number of Parker-isms suddenly lay under my fingers. This was a large step ahead in my jazz playing.

[FZ2017]

I memorized "Donna Lee" and I found that a number of Parker-isms suddenly lay under my fingers. This was a large step ahead in my jazz playing.

Interesting especially since they say miles wrote the song. But you probably transcribed a Parker solo on Donna Lee am I right?

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[wizard3739]

I have many, many recordings of the different horn players and much of my time is spent listening to them. I also listen to many different guitarists. I have never thought of claiming any of them to be an influence in my playing but the horn players always seem to me to have a more melodic sense to their solos than the guitarists I listen to.

wiz (Howie)

[FZ2017]

What I think the best combination would be horn players for lines/melody and piano players for chords/harmony. And finally Wes Montgomery as the guitar inspiration because let's face it he was the greatest.

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[TF]

Thanks for the response, FZ2017. I only learned the head to Donna Lee, not the solo. Learning Donna Lee, Moose the Mooche, and Scrapple from the Apple, I have absorbed enough phrasing and licks to piece together solos that many listeners might say, "sounds like jazz" - although I realize the large difference between me and the dedicated students of jazz who post here. I immodestly think that I could do an acceptable Grant Green imitation, but no more "advanced" than that!

Re the OP, I've been lucky enough to play with a lotta experienced tenor and baritone sax players and trumpet and trombone players, in a blues and R&B context. Can't help but absorb jazz if you work with horn players regularly, whatever the music style.

[Bobalou]

What I think the best combination would be horn players for lines/melody and piano players for chords/harmony. And finally Wes Montgomery as the guitar inspiration because let's face it he was the greatest.

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Well ya that would kind of make sense since horn players can't play chords at all.

Wes was a true master of jazz guitar, true that.

[TH]

Well ya that would kind of make sense since horn players can't play chords at all.

.

If you don't hear chords in this maybe we're thinking of chords in a different way.

[TH]

Are you saying horn players can't play chords? I'm confused.. they can certainly outline them, which is the same to me.

Maybe it's a perceptual difference. For some people, chords are a mechanical way of playing harmony; it's a grab. For some, chords are a way of playing harmonic sound, it can be linear, partial or polyphonic. But jazz is a study of line and harmony and I've witnessed horn players who played chords with more knowledge and realization of a tune's harmony than guitar players who "grab and plug".
I think it's a matter of how deeply you define harmony and chord.

David

[christianm77]

Well I think we are talking at cross purposes here which is shame, because ‘how can melodic instruments create harmony’ is an interesting subject.

But can horn players literally play chords? Well no not really.

So in that sense David is literally wrong.

But musically and the important sense
he is correct. When we play arpeggios on a guitar, or other chordal instrument - for instance the Bach prelude in D minor - we don’t imagine we are not playing chords. We can practice the left hand as chords separate from the right hand, for instance.

To take this one step further for a Bach prelude on a mostly non chordal instrument such as cello, violin, or in the case of Bobby McFerrin, human voice, what’s the difference? And don’t say over-ring because an acoustically live room or the resonance of the instrument creates that.

There is of course no difference.

In the case of jazz the art of playing a chord sequence melodic is key on any instrument. We call this descriptive language.

[MarkRhodes]

Well I think we are talking at cross purposes here which is shame, because ‘how can melodic instruments create harmony’ is an interesting subject.

Christian, Jim Hall never asked Sonny Rollins to comp for him while he took a solo...

That horn players may outline chord changes---Sonny Rollins is a master of this, and it's one reason he can entertain while playing unaccompanied----is not controversial at all. No one has denied that. Or even suggested it was unimportant. (Though if improv were compared to riding a bike, "change running" would be the "training wheels" stage.)

A C major 7 arpeggio (from root to 7th) is the same for a trumpet as it is for a piano or guitar or flute: C, E, G, B. In THIS sense, 'creating harmony with a melodic instrument' is no different for a trumpet player than a pianist.

Thus, Bert Ligon's "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony" can be used by pianists, guitarists, sax players, trumpet players, and so on, whereas there are no, say, "swing comping" or "chord melody" books for horn players, period.