Do you disregard the ii in a ii V7 (I) ?

**brwnhornet59** · 01-06-2012, 01:39 AM

I am all about treating ii V's as interchangeable with the minor 6 just being a rootless dom. Add the b7 and you have the dom sus. No need to look at them separately in this context. How you approach them, as major or minor, is a personal choice.

I also am all about rootless Dom 7b9 usage more than true dim. As was stated earlier harmonic minor or major are fine for dim, I might add, I enjoy the 5th mode of harmonic major against a domb9 with an unaltered 5th. Also the 2nd mode of mm works as will the 6th mode and of course the altered scale. It all depends on what you are looking for.

Diederik has some very insightful ideas as does Jonny and Amund. Great topic guys! Lets keep it coming.

**Kman** · 01-06-2012, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by MeneerJelle

Nice! But I still don't really get how you can explain the Fm7b5 or the Fdim substituting the G7. Do they have something in common?

That dimished scale comes in handy at faster tempos (Fdim in the key of C) It lies great on the fingerboard. It's often just a half step away.

**Diederikeggenkamp** · 01-06-2012, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by MeneerJelle

@Diederik:
Could you perhaps dig a little deeper on that CMM over the Em7-Ebdim-Dm7 progression. I'd initially think same way as you, where Ebdim would be a rootless B7b9. Therefore, I would play E harmonic minor. Even if I related it to a raised fourth degree of C msjor, I'm still clueless about that C melodic minor. Could you help me out again? Haha.

Sure meneerJelle,

it's based on the given fact that you have subdominant diminished chords and dominant diminished chords. Found on the seventh degree of the harmonic minor scale and the raised 4th (#iv) degree of the melodic minor scale.

This last concept is what we're dealing with. The idea is that at some point in old music (not sure which era) composers started to add a leading tone to the 4th degree of the scales. In major this would create a half-diminished chord (F#m7b5 in C) and in the minor it create a diminished chord (F#dim7 in Cmm). These have both created cadences of movement that are somewhat identical and more powerful than their original versions. Ah nice example of what I mean by identical can be found in the standard Alone Together (key of D minor):

In bar 9 of this song you often see either Abdim7 or Bm7b5 - E7b9 as a movement. They are interchangeable and provide different color mostly because of the root movement. Abdim7 moves to Gm7, thus functioning the same as the previously seen Ebdim7 to Dm7. It eventually resolves to the one chord Fmaj7, pararell to D minor.

Now pay attention cause this is the clue.

We have either

Abdim7 - Gm7 C7 - Fmaj7
or
Bm7b5 E7b9 - Gm7 C7 -Fmaj7

Abdim7 is found as Bdim7 on the #iv degree of F melodic minor
Bm7b5 (here with it's five attached for harmonic purposes) is the #iv of F major.

And check it out. That Same Abdim7, when you invert it to Fdim7 for a closer look, is the b9 upperstructure of that E7b9 we've used. So we're right back on topic!

Feel free to ask again if I wasn't clear or perhaps too elaborate, I love this kind of stuff.

Diederik

**Diederikeggenkamp** · 01-06-2012, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I am all about treating ii V's as interchangeable with the minor 6 just being a rootless dom. Add the b7 and you have the dom sus. No need to look at them separately in this context. How you approach them, as major or minor, is a personal choice.

I also am all about rootless Dom 7b9 usage more than true dim. As was stated earlier harmonic minor or major are fine for dim, I might add I enjoy the 5th mode of harmonic major against a domb9 with an unaltered 5th. Also the 2nd mode of mm works as will the 6th mode and of course the altered scale. It all depends on what you are looking for.

Diederik has some very insightful ideas as does Jonny and Amund. Great topic guys! Lets keep it coming.

Thanks man! Your point of view is a good one too, the rootless dom7b9 rather than a true dim. I just wrote something for MeneerJelle going into the relation of the 7b9 and it's dim. Out of that, one can draw the conclusion that it's easier to play over a dim as a dominant. Charlie Parker did it that way, but I always like to know the origin behind it!

**Drumbler** · 01-06-2012, 09:32 AM

Interesting to contrast this discussion with a recent thread about how Barney Kessel thinks when he plays.

What the greats were thinking?
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post192943

**brwnhornet59** · 01-06-2012, 09:37 AM

Yes Sir, very cool stuff indeed!

**princeplanet** · 01-06-2012, 09:38 AM

Yep, it seems that many of the greats will tell you they are not really thinking while improvising the way we might. Must be nice to have the chops down to the point they just pour out of you and land in the right places, differently every time.....

**Double 07** · 01-06-2012, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yep, it seems that many of the greats will tell you they are not really thinking while improvising the way we might. Must be nice to have the chops down to the point they just pour out of you and land in the right places, differently every time.....

Well guys like that certainly invested a huge amount of time (before the gig) studying music, practicing, and listening to what they're playing. Invested the time learning, listening, and playing before the gig, so when the gig comes they can just let go and let it fly. Hopefully with a whole lot of soulful feeling in it.

They're never just "mindlessly throwing their fingers around" just showing the fruits of all their thousands of hours of labor. That's what you're hearing at the gig.

I guess that's their reward for the countless hours they invested honing their craft, perfecting their passion, when they could have been spending their time on a million other less rewarding activities.

**a22** · 01-26-2012, 07:05 AM

When I'm really playing I don't think about it much, more of a let the ears and fingers go by intuition type of thing, but definitely the V chord and the resolve back to I is something my ears recognize as important when I play. The whole relationship between practice and 'playing for real' so to speak is a bit of a mystery to me, but I've noticed how the sound of ii-V-I has become so familiar and my fingers sort of know where to go because I've practiced it for so long. It's a bit like the fretboard illuminates certain notes and patterns that I know that will sound right(ish). I'm by no means a master improviser and I've only played jazz for 5 years (blues for 10 though).

**Diederikeggenkamp** · 01-26-2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Interesting to contrast this discussion with a recent thread about how Barney Kessel thinks when he plays.

What the greats were thinking?
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post192943

That's pretty interesting indeed. BUT! Obviously the difference in what Barney said and what we're doing here is that you have to internalize stuff before you play them. No-one things about these thing when he's playing!.. Well, with the exception of practice-playing, perhaps. It reminds me of a fun myth: A friend of mine once got told by his teacher that Chet Baker never practiced scales in the way Coltrane for instance did. His current teacher says that's bullshit and that Chet has had a military-like education in scales and arrpegios. Obviously we can't be sure about these kind of things. But I truly believe that it's no more than positive too practice scales and arrpegios excessively. Only to forget them on the bandstand. So no, I don't think I agree with Barney completely!