Melodic Minor

[zigzag]

I'm learning the melodic minor scale. Once I learn it, what do I do with it?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

You can use it in at least three different ways. Consider the D jazz minor (or melodic minor, ascending) scale: D E F G A B C# D

1. Play it over a D minor type of chord, especially a Dm(Maj7) = D F A C#.

2. Play it over G7. The C# is the #11 of the G7 and yields a bright, lydian sound. This scale (G A B C# D E F G) is called the lydian dominant.

3. Play it over a C#7 altered chord. The scale has lots of colour notes (b9, #9, b5, #5). This scale (C# D E F G A B C#) is called, among other things, the altered scale.

[fep]

Interesting scale in that the modes of the melodic minor are more useful that the primary scale.

Let's look at C melodic minor:

C D Eb F G A B C

The 7th mode is the altered scale:

B C D Eb F G A B

The altered scale is a very commonly used scale over altered dominant Chords and even plain old dominant chords. In this case play the 7th mode of the C melodic minor over B7alt (B7#5, B7b5, B7#5b9 etc.) or over B7.

The Locrian #2 scale is the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale. Play that over m7b5 chords:

A B C D Eb F G A

Play that over Am7b5

The Lydian Dominant scale is the 4th mode of the melodic minor:

F G A B C D Eb F

That is the go to scale for a dominant chord that doesn't have the normal resolution to a chord a 5th down.

And that's it for me, those are the only ones I use (other than the obvious one of playing the C melodic minor of a Cm or Cm6 or Cm(maj7))

[jmstritt]

To present the same info fep provided in a slightly different way.

Over a Dominant 7th chord that does not resolve. Play MM up a 5th (E Melodic Minor over A7) that will give you the Lydian Dominant sound.

Over a Dominant 7th chord that DOES resolve to its I you can play MM up a half step, down a whole step, or up a fourth. (Ab, F, or C MM over a G7)

Over a min7b5 chord, play MM up a minor third. ( Eb MM over C-7b5)

Basically this just gives you a way to hit all of your altered notes. You could learn a G7 arpeggio, the a G7b9, G7#9, G7b5, G7#5, etc, or you could just play Ab Melodic Minor and get them all. Neat right?

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by fep

Interesting scale in that the modes of the melodic minor are more useful that the primary scale.

Nice summary, fep. Never gets old. Ascending MM is the sound of modern jazz. To answer OP: You never stop learning MM. 1. Make sure you learn the scale and all its modes in one key. 2. Repeat in all 12 keys.

[jmstritt]

Also you can use it as just a minor scale over a static minor progression. You will just end up with a Dorian scale with a leading tone back to the tonic.

[RyanM]

I've never really been much into that old Berklee approach (MM up a step if resolving, up a 5th otherwise), and not just because I'm not into CST anymore.

What they are implying with that approach, is usually when a dominant isn't resolving down a 5th to its tonic, its resolving down a half step, i.e., the chord ends up being the tritone sub of the V chord.
So that means when you play MM up a 5th, yes you get lydian Dominant, but actually you are just getting the same altered sound, since Lydian Dominant is the tritone sub of the altered scale.

I use the guideline of melodic minor over the V chord (7th mode/altered scale) for a minor key sound, and the symmetric diminished scale (over the V chord) as an altered major key sound.
This is because the diminished has a natural 6th, which is the major 3rd of the key, and the altered scale has a b6, which is the minor 3rd of the key.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by RyanM

What they are implying with that approach, is usually when a dominant isn't resolving down a 5th to its tonic, its resolving down a half step, i.e., the chord ends up being the tritone sub of the V chord.
So that means when you play MM up a 5th, yes you get lydian Dominant, but actually you are just getting the same altered sound, since Lydian Dominant is the tritone sub of the altered scale.

I don't assume a non-resolving dominant must be a tritone substitution, although I follow your reasoning in that case.

The way I think about lydian dominant over a dominant chord is that it's the most consonant scale in this case, and by playing it, you are just steering close to the chord. The altered scale has more tension that would like to be resolved. I don't see any problem with playing the altered scale over a non-resolving dom -- you can either find a way to resolve your line in some way, or just leave it hanging like you meant to do that!

[zigzag]

You guys are incredible! Lots to think about and play with. Thanks! Keep it coming.

[eddy b.]

You may also want to harmonize the scale into triad's and there you will find some great voice leading things. An excercise I do is to take any triad like , A C E, find as many possible inversions as you can, then add a bass note starting with A and you get A minor, then Bb and you get Bb maj7,9#11, then add bass note B and you get B min7,b9,sus.11, etc. Do this for every triad in the A Harmonic minor scale and your chords will go through the roof.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by eddy b.

You may also want to harmonize the scale into triad's and there you will find some great voice leading things. An excercise I do is to take any triad like , A C E, find as many possible inversions as you can, then add a bass note starting with A and you get A minor, then Bb and you get Bb maj7,9#11, then add bass note B and you get B min7,b9,sus.11, etc. Do this for every triad in the A Harmonic minor scale and your chords will go through the roof.

WHOA!!! Lightbulb!

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by eddy b.

You may also want to harmonize the scale into triad's and there you will find some great voice leading things. An excercise I do is to take any triad like , A C E, find as many possible inversions as you can, then add a bass note starting with A and you get A minor, then Bb and you get Bb maj7,9#11, then add bass note B and you get B min7,b9,sus.11, etc. Do this for every triad in the A Harmonic minor scale and your chords will go through the roof.

Yeah, that is always fun, lots of good idea's.

Several ways that I did not see mentioned, that I have been using MM, is if I have a Vb9 with an unaltered 5th, I like playing Dorian b9, (2nd mode of MM), over it. I also like the sound of the 5th mode, Dom b6, depending on what I am doing.

[Joe Carlson]

Possibly dumb question here, but I figured I'd ask anyway. I've heard from multiple sources (including the Mark Lavine book and this thread, among others) that you can play a jazz minor up a minor third over a m7b5 chord. My question is in the context of a minor ii-v-i situation, say in Cm. So the ii would be a Dm7b5, over which you would play an f melodic minor, right? Wouldn't the E note sound bad in an overall "key of the moment" of C minor? I seem to have better luck playing a dorian up a minor third.

[brwnhornet59]

Look at it this way, the 6th mode of MM is locrain natural 2, which is -7b5 with a natural 9. If you play D-7b5 from the 2nd mode, you would be playing C HM.


So with D-7b5 play F MM

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

In the "usual" locrian over the m7b5, the minor second is an "avoid" tone:

Bm7b5 : B C(avoid) D E F G A B

The locrian Maj2 replaces this with a sweet sounding C#:

Bm7b5 : B C# D E F G A B

(Aside: if you view the Bm7b5 as a rootless G9, we've just gone from mixolydian to lydian dominant.)

But the C# clashing with A minor, which is where this ii chord is heading! Don't panic, you've got plenty of time to resolve it, say to a D over E7.

[JonnyPac]

Melodic minor is the "inside choice" for certain chords even- therefore it is a "must" to know it and all of its modes in all 12 keys. There are many related threads here on it. Get busy!

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...-question.html

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...lt-chords.html

[Joe Carlson]

I am familiar with the theory involved with the MM. My question has to do with the "conventional" wisdom that you can play a MM scale a minor third up from a m7b5 chord. By this logic you can play an F# in the second bar of Alone Together? To my ear that just doesn't sound right. Am I crazy here?

[brwnhornet59]

On a minor ii V i, I would play D locrain natural 2, G alt, C MM over D-7b5, G7b9, C-6. In that context the stress is released beautifully.

So I find no issues with E.

[RyanM]

Originally Posted by Joe Carlson

I am familiar with the theory involved with the MM. My question has to do with the "conventional" wisdom that you can play a MM scale a minor third up from a m7b5 chord. By this logic you can play an F# in the second bar of Alone Together? To my ear that just doesn't sound right. Am I crazy here?

I agree with you, that it doesn't sound good. This is why I think it's a dumb idea to use CST and "scales up/down a 5th/3rd etc" for improvisation and making melodies.

[Reg]

There are other ways to look at and hear MM. Just like you learn scales... not to simply play scales, arpeggios or how ever you want to use the collection of note. After you get past the application part of using the notes... you'll begin to understand what they can imply, where they can go. What door are open or closed, generally through Modal interchange, modal style of implying function or harmonic movement or even simply Blues and what they imply.
But what can be different with MM is that we don't really use the modes of MM as we do with natural Minor. When we pull from MM or imply from MM... all doors are open. You can play from any mode... Obviously some skill is required and we need to be aware of both tri-tones and other strong interval implications etc...
To your basic question... it works great, it's really just the second inversion of the implied V chord...
F#-7b5 going to B7alt to where ever you want, E-9, Bb13, F-9 Bb13
Your pulling from AMM right... that the basic logic... The F#-7b5 is the VI chord from AMM , your using as D7#11 etc...
Some basic MM info... there is no ascending, descending BS in typical jass usage... you can Modal interchange to any minor, in any direction, any time, any where you choose... some sound better than others, it helps when you have a concept...
Unless your really trying to imply, sound like or some other reason a specific chord structure... or your still in your early stages of trying to understand and hear MM... going through a few steps to play what's really going on.... as in your example of thinking of MM up a Min 3rd to come up with collection of notes... You need to have a better concept of learning or move on quickly...Your trying to imply a min7b5 chord, you can through the "concept" of Modal interchange or through the less complicated application, "Borrowing" from, create that note collection from the actual source... at least one less step...
When we play in modal style, or use modal concepts... in Maj or Nat Min... there are characteristic pitches, defining pitches. We use those pitches in a few methods to imply function or movement or simply to imply the mode we choose... In MM we generally don't have characteristic pitches or avoid notes, to a degree, in any mode any note is cool... In A MM the G# can imply AMM or just as easily imply D7 or Cmay7#5 etc... The modal usage is a different concept...
I think of MM as one of the big four characteristics of what defines Jazz. The door to MM is always open, it's from where I start, not where I might go.... Reg

[wagx3]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

You can use it in at least three different ways. Consider the D jazz minor (or melodic minor, ascending) scale: D E F G A B C# D

1. Play it over a D minor type of chord, especially a Dm(Maj7) = D F A C#.

2. Play it over G7. The C# is the #11 of the G7 and yields a bright, lydian sound. This scale (G A B C# D E F G) is called the lydian dominant.

3. Play it over a C#7 altered chord. The scale has lots of colour notes (b9, #9, b5, #5). This scale (C# D E F G A B C#) is called, among other things, the altered scale.

You have no idea how much you have helped me with this post. I never noticed to connection between that melodic minor scale and the other two you mentioned

[AmundLauritzen]

There are lots of things you can do with it. I like to find little melodic fragments and try them in different melodic minor situations: tonic minor, II-chord, dom7th altered, lydian dominant etcetra. There is a melodic minor option for major chords also: Lydian Augmented.

For example, in C melodic minor, I may play D,Eb,G,A and sequence it up the fretboard. I love this pattern and use it a lot. So you just have to find this "note picture" in every melodic minor situation and you can use it on many different chord types. It will work especially good with superlocrian/altered and lydian dominant. I haven't tried it in a lydian augmented situation yet, but thanks to this discussion, I will.

Stack thirds to get the arpeggios, use them as triads and four note arpeggios. You can use any diatonic arpeggio from the scale in these situations. With lydian augmented, you even avoid the "handle with care" note, the natural 4th so you can really go crazy and play just about anything as long as it makes sense in the context of a musical statement.

John Stowell has some amazing videos on melodic minor. There are some short clips on YouTube. I haven't purchased the lesson so I don't know many details, but from the short promotional videos I can hear him playing some really hip stuff like he usually does.
John Stowell - Melodic Minor Applications - YouTube

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah, taking 1 2 4 5 arps like you did with D dorian b2 is a fine way of expressing MM. Playing that over C-M7 gives the 2 b3 5 6 sound. The nice thing about MM is that you can use all of it's voicing's against any of it's sounds.

I tend to use sequences more often than not when using MM, unless jamming over a set of static chords, then I delve deeper.

John's playing is great. I always love hearing him.

[Nuff Said]

Personally, I learn't each MM mode for the whole fretboard in each of the 12 keys, exactly the same procedure as I did many years ago for each Major mode. Now I hear MM mode phrases and play them without thinking, but it took a long, but interesting, time to get to that point.

Nuff Said

[zigzag]

Yeah Nuff. That's how I learn all my scales. I also learn them horizonally in two string groups. That really helps me to hear and play them, and to get around on the neck.

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah, that is always the best way to learn IMO.

I learn them off of 4 string sets, though the upper two are repeats a whole step above on the fret board, the arps and scales are vital to know in small fragments everywhere. Many more fingerings present themselves this way, at least to me. Being aware of roots and modes on the upper string sets becomes much easier this way as well.

[Reg]

That is great method of becoming aware of fretboard... but not really how MM is used by jazz players...Reg

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah Reg, that was the point, well at least my point. How to learn it everywhere. Once done, using it when weaving other sequences over changes becomes much more natural than finding a starting point on the lower strings because you were not oriented enough to see smaller upper voicing's of MM. This holds true with any note collection. If you can't see it in your minds eye, how will you ever utilize it effectively? Which leads into your point.

[ubiguitar]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

On a minor ii V i, I would play D locrain natural 2, G alt, C MM over D-7b5, G7b9, C-6. In that context the stress is released beautifully.

So I find no issues with E.

I put some improvisation ideas on this progression here.

Regards

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by Reg

That is great method of becoming aware of fretboard... but not really how MM is used by jazz players...Reg

Thanks
Nuff