Playing using tension, dissonance, etc.

[Goofsus4]

Another thing that can help with the outside thing is just playing more intervallically. I have a Joe Diorio book called Intervallic Designs for Jazz Guitar. You might check it out on Amazon. It definitely gave me some ideas that I have incorporated into my playing. Some of the ideas, such as big intervallic movement on pentatonic shapes doesn't even require playing tensions, yet sounds very unique, if not actually "outside." Some of his lines are just way too out there for me, but the concept is powerful.

As for side-stepping. I have started using that more and more with good effect. Mr. B has said in the past that you can't be good at playing outside until you can play inside really well, or something to that effect. As my improv has advanced, I've noticed how right he is about that. I think to make side-stepping convincing you have to really know how to resolve back inside so it sounds like "you meant to do that &%*@ you just did."


Amazon.com: Intervallic Designs for Jazz Guitar: Ultramodern Sounds for Improvising (REH Pro Lessons) (0073999955651): Joe Diorio: Gateway

[gingerjazz]

I once watched a tuition video of larry carlton in which he used sidestepping.I think it is one of those things you have to play with conviction or it sounds wrong.

[Eccles]

I like to think of it in this way: If you take the Ionian mode of the tonic then all of the notes outside of that can be found on the super loc of the V except the lydian #4th. So a superimposition of the lydian mode of I and the locrian mode of the melodic minor on the V will give you a chromatic scale. So when I play in the gaps I am really always in the super loc mode or lydian.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I notice that a lot of the mention of tension is referring strictly to note choice.

But in reality, that's not true. You can use rhythm to get tension and release just as effectively as you can changing scale or sidestepping- and for someone who's just starting out with tension and release, I think it'd be easier to vary rhythm while keeping their note choice the same.

Give it a try.

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

I notice that a lot of the mention of tension is referring strictly to note choice.

But in reality, that's not true. You can use rhythm to get tension and release just as effectively as you can changing scale or sidestepping- and for someone who's just starting out with tension and release, I think it'd be easier to vary rhythm while keeping their note choice the same.

Give it a try.

Sounds like a good advice, but a little bit vague. Could you please provide some examples?

[Shadow of the Sun]

One simple example is that if you play the same rhythmic figure over and over for a long period of time, the music becomes tense. The opposite is also true- if you play in a way that seems out of rhythm, the music likewise becomes tense.

But really, I'd advise just experimenting- which is what I'm doing. Try varying up your rhythms until you find how to use it to make very tense stuff, and then how to release it.

[Vihar]

Thanks, so it's a matter of playing with the "pocket" again? Behind the beat, ahead the beat etc.?

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

One simple example is that if you play the same rhythmic figure over and over for a long period of time, the music becomes tense. The opposite is also true- if you play in a way that seems out of rhythm, the music likewise becomes tense.

But really, I'd advise just experimenting- which is what I'm doing. Try varying up your rhythms until you find how to use it to make very tense stuff, and then how to release it.

Interesting, I never thought of rhythm as creating tension, but you are right now that I reflect upon it, especially that repetitive thing. I wonder though if prolonged rhythmic repetition is being assisted by the changing tonality of the pattern if the chords change while it's being played though. Sometimes those repetitive devices are not done over a static chord, but the same little lick is played repetitively as the chords change. The changing intervallic relationships may be what is helping to create the tension in your example. I'll have to think about that the next time I'm using a rhythmic device.

[Shadow of the Sun]

More or less.

I'm a big fan of funk, so...getting in the rhythm is something that I really work on.

If you play in a way that clashes with the rhythm of the piece, then thing get tense- which you can resolve by returning to the original rhythm of the piece. It's a fun little way to work on tension and release without messing with note choices at first.

The repetitive thing is a judgement call- you take a device and repeat it until it's just about to become boring to the listener, and then move on to a different figure.

[JC28]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

And of course--there's sidestepping--and no new scales needed to be known.

Over a chord that asks for tension (like an altered dominant) start your line a half step lower (or higher) than would be "in key," and slip your way back to "in key," with a strong resolution. It's all about how you get back in--it takes practice, but it's the simplest way of getting "outside sounds"

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I am having a hard time getting my head around this. So if You had a bar of G7 resolving to a bar of Cmaj7, would you Sidestep into Bb major in the G7 bar and then resolve Into Cmajor on the Cmaj7 bar? Also when you side stepped would you be thinking of a F#7 Arpeggio or a Bbmaj7 Arpeggio?

Thanks,

Jeff

[merseybeat]

would you Sidestep into Bb major in the G7

George Benson actually speaks of this on one of his video's! Its a cool trick! Basically you can play almost anything over that G7... Think about this.. Mixolydian is the obvious choice! Add to that b5, #5, b9, #9 and you now have another 4 useful notes! (See what I'm getting at). So as long as there is some formal structure (Regardless of key center) and more importantly you bring it home then anything goes!

Eddie

[bako]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

George Benson actually speaks of this on one of his video's! Its a cool trick! Basically you can play almost anything over that G7... Think about this.. Mixolydian is the obvious choice! Add to that b5, #5, b9, #9 and you now have another 4 useful notes! (See what I'm getting at). So as long as there is some formal structure (Regardless of key center) and more importantly you bring it home then anything goes!Eddie

That's right 7 notes + 4 notes = 11 out of 12

That leaves F# which is part of a D7 (secondary dominant of G7) providing a context for using note #12

[jayx123]

Originally Posted by JC28

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I am having a hard time getting my head around this. So if You had a bar of G7 resolving to a bar of Cmaj7, would you Sidestep into Bb major in the G7 bar and then resolve Into Cmajor on the Cmaj7 bar? Also when you side stepped would you be thinking of a F#7 Arpeggio or a Bbmaj7 Arpeggio?

Thanks,

Jeff

correct, although I prefer the half step above (C# major scale)

[merseybeat]

correct, although I prefer the half step above (C# major scale)

Actually my one of my favorites! Just enough tension to please and a nice gentle release! You can also play a series of random triads too (Though this takes a little practice). Honestly, anything goes! Again as long as the line you are playing is stable within itself the overall key center of that Valt chord is irrelevant! However, that said some work better than others!

Ed

[JC28]

Thanks for all the replies Merseybeat, Jax and bako for the replies. I was trying to wprk my way through this but it just didnt seem to click. I was going down a half step which might have been the cause. I will try gonig a half step up.

SO I guess the Idea is more that you are appoaching the C major scale from a half step above, and not just moving G Mixo a step Up? So the arpeggio that would fit the best would be C#maj7?

Thanks again,

Jeff

[mr. beaumont]

doesn't matter--up or down works--just has to be natural how you get out and back in.

[Claudi]

Now it's all clear to me, too. Thank you guys!

[merseybeat]

Most welcome! As Mr B says just has to be natural how you get out and back in.

Just for future reference!
G7b9 = G#Dim
G7b13 = Gaug
You will get a lot of milage over these chords using the same ideas suggested in this thread!
Thats all your chords covered! Now go and have fun!

Eddie

[cosmic gumbo]

On the last song of a gig, a real tension builder that I use, is to tune up my high E string slowly until it is under so much tension that it breaks. Great way to end the night...

[merseybeat]

I once called one of the horn players "a lazy egotistic crusty old duck blower who's chin had obviously been hit by more balls than Ian Botham's cricket bat!" that created a little tension too!

Eddie