Developing Ideas and Motifs

**musicjohnny** · 07-06-2010, 03:59 PM

I'm really looking to focus on this in my practice regimen. Any thoughts on developing this aspect of my playing? Thanks, John.

**philipmgibson** · 07-06-2010, 04:12 PM

Would be hesitant to offer advice myself but I can thouroughly recommend Jim Hall's video on the subject

**On Sugar Hill** · 07-07-2010, 03:59 AM

I was wondering about this topic too and realize you just have to practice it. Take it slow at first. Forget the metronome. Try to play a simple line that works over a certain chord change. Then try to play a line with the same rhythm over different changes. Keep doing this and your brain should start naturally doing this in your solos. Once your'e able to do it on the spot, you'll probably learn to build larger motifs out of your phrases. Good luck

**JazzVocab** · 07-07-2010, 05:04 AM

The easiest way for me is to sing the phrase over a backing track and record it for transcribing. I know that sounds a little long winded but you get to follow the phrase without getting bogged down in the mechanics of the instrument and scales and so forth. If I try and do the same thing using theory it always ends up wrong because to me sometimes the phrase flows better using 'outside' notes; notes I wouldn't think of playing using strictly theory.

**theo** · 07-07-2010, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by philipmgibson

Would be hesitant to offer advice myself but I can thouroughly recommend Jim Hall's video on the subject

Which video are you talking about? I´m really interested in his take on this subject.

**shoome** · 07-07-2010, 07:52 AM

I think he is talking about "Jim Hall Jazz Guitar Master Class: Advanced Concepts / Self Expression Volume 2" which unfortunately isn't available in germany

at least I haven't found a store/online store that sells it...

[what makes me dream again of the community's idea of reselling/-shipping between different countries

]

jeffstocksmusic · 07-07-2010, 08:32 AM

This concept was one of the last ones I worked on with my last teacher and he had some great insights.

1. Pick a short phrase with a specific shape and rhythm (up, up, down, for example) and move it diatonically.
2. Move the same phrase chromatically, ignoring the changes and just letting the shape of the phrase override the changes.
3. Reverse the phrase (down, up, up) and repeat #1 and #2 in terms of how to move it.

Another idea that he had me do A LOT was to take a tune and write a solo using concepts. For example, take the tune 'Yesterdays'. Over the first 4 bars, I will only play in half notes. Next four bars, only phrases using the whole tone scale. Next two bars, only silence. Next five bars, only triplets.

This really forces you into exploring concepts and gives your solo shape and interest. I have done so much of this that I can play using 'concepts' live, on a good night. On a bad night, well, not so much.

The trick, in my experience, is just to have the discipline to work very specifically on it. It can be a huge pain to limit yourself to just a few notes or a few rhythms, but I think it is worth the hassle.

**FatJeff** · 07-07-2010, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by jeffstocksmusic

Next two bars, only silence.

This is the one I can never seem to get right. :-)

jeffstocksmusic · 07-07-2010, 11:31 AM

This is the one I can never seem to get right. :-)

My teacher is a sax player and has little patience for guitar wanking/noodling. He actually makes me take both hands completely off of the guitar after every phrase. Amazing how much it helps limit how much you play

.....

**whiskey02** · 07-08-2010, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by musicjohnny

I'm really looking to focus on this in my practice regimen. Any thoughts on developing this aspect of my playing? Thanks, John.

Just a suggestion: Pick a short rhythmic phrase (or a couple) from another tune - apply a new set of notes to that/those rhythmic figure. I other words, play the rhythm of "all of me" to any tune you happen to be playing over, just use different notes.

**franamico** · 07-09-2010, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by musicjohnny

I'm really looking to focus on this in my practice regimen. Any thoughts on developing this aspect of my playing? Thanks, John.

Hey I posted a series of articles on this very topic on this forum a while ago.
Check for my posts on:

1) Imitation
2) Extension
3) Fragmentation

Good Luck!

**Jazzyteach65** · 07-09-2010, 08:15 PM

ingredients I use:
certain intervals, ornamentation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)
repeating rhythms, retorgrade, change in melodic direction ect. playing off melodic quotes ect.

Overall, the most useful thing IMO to get your feet wet is melodic/digital cells. they are heard ALL OVER improv. What helped me was Jerry Coker's book "Patterns in Jazz," filled with melodic and digital patterns used in meloldic conformation by a lot of the greats!

**Jazzyteach65** · 07-11-2010, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by jeffstocksmusic

This concept was one of the last ones I worked on with my last teacher and he had some great insights.

1. Pick a short phrase with a specific shape and rhythm (up, up, down, for example) and move it diatonically.
2. Move the same phrase chromatically, ignoring the changes and just letting the shape of the phrase override the changes.
3. Reverse the phrase (down, up, up) and repeat #1 and #2 in terms of how to move it.

Another idea that he had me do A LOT was to take a tune and write a solo using concepts. For example, take the tune 'Yesterdays'. Over the first 4 bars, I will only play in half notes. Next four bars, only phrases using the whole tone scale. Next two bars, only silence. Next five bars, only triplets.

This really forces you into exploring concepts and gives your solo shape and interest. I have done so much of this that I can play using 'concepts' live, on a good night. On a bad night, well, not so much.

The trick, in my experience, is just to have the discipline to work very specifically on it. It can be a huge pain to limit yourself to just a few notes or a few rhythms, but I think it is worth the hassle.

When you say "up up down" do you mean melodic direction?

**fumblefingers** · 07-11-2010, 08:53 PM

listen to a lot of Dexter Gordon, then transcribe him.

try to make melodies from antecedent/consequent phrases.

jeffstocksmusic · 07-12-2010, 08:03 AM

When you say "up up down" do you mean melodic direction?

Yes.

**franamico** · 07-12-2010, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

ingredients I use:
certain intervals, ornamentation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)
repeating rhythms, retorgrade, change in melodic direction ect. playing off melodic quotes ect.

Overall, the most useful thing IMO to get your feet wet is melodic/digital cells. they are heard ALL OVER improv. What helped me was Jerry Coker's book "Patterns in Jazz," filled with melodic and digital patterns used in meloldic conformation by a lot of the greats!

Beautiful...I'm gonna check that book out.
You might like Hal Crook's "How To Improvise"

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-12-2010, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

ingredients I use:
certain intervals, ornamentation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)
repeating rhythms, retorgrade, change in melodic direction ect. playing off melodic quotes ect.

You make up stuff then play it in retrograde, in improvisations? That's impressive! I learned about that classical gas in theory classes when we have to analyze Bach fugues. The one thing I really couldn't detect by ear was a theme in retrograde. Something about time's arrow always pointing the other way for me...

**Diederikeggenkamp** · 07-12-2010, 01:38 PM

The only advice I can give is the way I learned it myself.. 2 basic concepts.. One is learning to instantly compose your own melodies over a chord sequence.. That sounded harder than I meant it. I Basically mean.. *snaredrums...* Whisteling!.. Just set up a (Jamey Aebersold) backingtrack and whistle/hum through the changes. That way you are free of any technical limitations, the gap between your brain and your output are so small at that point that anything that comes out is as natural to you as general conversation! Motives will develop instantly in that way.. Furthermore just, ya know, talk the talk! Make a story like you would when telling a story.. It all comes naturally in due course!

Now the second concept.. Lineair playing, at least that's what I call it.. There's nothing really lineair to it, it's just.. Playing vertically over the neck, i.e. play scales on only one string, think from bottom to top as opposed to a scalar from E to e figure. I found that by doing that, I developed a more story-telling like quality to my playing. I can't really explain why, it just does! I think it's because you're not so tempted to run up and down scales that way, and it gives you an automatic tendency to build upon something since you pretty much don't have that much to throw in there..! So start of with 1 string than build up to the whole bunch BUT, stay vertically.

Shalom!

P.S. The advice given above is also excellent i.m.h.o.. But those are of the more involved, disciplined kind I think.. they are a must to review everyday! Let it be playingwise or studywise.. My concept however is purely playing wise.. It's not a study thing, just mess around with it!

**Domina Catrina** · 07-23-2010, 12:08 AM

"People sometimes say it takes a long time to become a jazz fan, but for me it took about five seconds"

- Pat Metheny

Yeah, right. Like when he was 3 years old on his daddy's knee. I love Pat's playing before he joined Geffen, and way before he started his own company, but really....coming from a whole family jammed full of JAZZ musicians, mostly professional, does not make one think that liking the music would come really natural very early on?

**Domina Catrina** · 07-23-2010, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

ingredients I use:
certain intervals, ornamentation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)
repeating rhythms, retorgrade, change in melodic direction ect. playing off melodic quotes ect.

Overall, the most useful thing IMO to get your feet wet is melodic/digital cells. they are heard ALL OVER improv. What helped me was Jerry Coker's book "Patterns in Jazz," filled with melodic and digital patterns used in meloldic conformation by a lot of the greats!

Melodic cells= licks. I had one guy once wanted lessons from me, and he demanded all I teach him were licks. Everyone knows of players who only play pre-fab licks, and sound generic as white bread.

I know of musicians with the strangest ideas on how to make improvs. One other guy believed 2 contradictory ideas - both invalid in my opinion - one was tacit, but his stuff really sounded like it was based on it; that everthing was basically derived from the blues scale, and that if your mind is strong enough you can stick any bunch of notes anywhere and make it sound great.
He has been a professional guitarist for over 25 years now, and when you hear him play, he still sounds like he someone who's been playing 2 years or so.

I would say - make your own licks, based on the theory derived from studying licks of players you like. The more global and complete your understanding of theory is, the more you can draw from, and the more likely it would be to found your own sound.

**Diederikeggenkamp** · 07-23-2010, 12:54 PM

Dude, it's just a nice quote I found quite special

it doesn't necessarily mean that I share this opinion on liking a specific style.. Nah but seriously, I see where you're coming from. But what he was trying to say with that quote is to be taken very literally, he listened to Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, and claims that from that point on he never looked back. That's the bare essence of the statement..

Shalom

**Jazzyteach65** · 07-23-2010, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Domina Catrina

Melodic cells= licks. I had one guy once wanted lessons from me, and he demanded all I teach him were licks. Everyone knows of players who only play pre-fab licks, and sound generic as white bread.

I know of musicians with the strangest ideas on how to make improvs. One other guy believed 2 contradictory ideas - both invalid in my opinion - one was tacit, but his stuff really sounded like it was based on it; that everthing was basically derived from the blues scale, and that if your mind is strong enough you can stick any bunch of notes anywhere and make it sound great.
He has been a professional guitarist for over 25 years now, and when you hear him play, he still sounds like he someone who's been playing 2 years or so.

I would say - make your own licks, based on the theory derived from studying licks of players you like. The more global and complete your understanding of theory is, the more you can draw from, and the more likely it would be to found your own sound.

A cell is not a "lick" until it is dileberately played, rehearsed then applied verbatim. If a cell is internalized, then morphed and used and developed as a connector between ideas, then it is not a "lick," it's "improvised vernacular."

The gentleman who had two ways of approaching improv0what were they?

Metheny was born into a jazz family? I thought his family were just musicians.

**Diederikeggenkamp** · 07-25-2010, 12:31 PM

Haha you're right.. He was not born in a jazz family! Just a musical mom and grandpa from mom's side.. I don't really see how his response relates to my little tribute anyway.. Matter of fact.. Jazz was not really popular in that household (parentwise, his brother Mike did play it ofcourse).. As pat stated: his parents didn't know what to think of it.. He played guitar but wasn't into rock or anything like that,, which makes quite clear they weren't THAT familiar with jazz :P

By the way I guess the bluesscale guy probably never learned a damn shit about arrpegio's and chordtones.. add that to the equation and you sound like you had 10 years of playing skill extra i.m.h.o! don't you agree? I realise you were just quoting, just curious (: