Most efficient way of picking?

[Striker813]

Hi,
Recently I've been hearing about these different types of picking. Economy/Directional, alternate and circle. I've been wanting to know which one is the most efficient. I tried economy but it's just not working. For one lick i play:
1 note on the fifth then 2 on the fourth and 1 on the third. So if I'm thinking correctly the picking pattern would be downstroke downstroke upstroke downstroke. So in this situation I'm I think it might be inefficient because after that upstroke I'm moving to another string rather than doing a downstroke to the other string but I don't see how that could possibly be changed so it is efficient. So it's a bit confusing. Does this just work for certain scale runs or a specific riff in a song? Or can I use it throughout. Also, how can one practice this technique? Thanks.

[Lobomov]

Hehe .. there is no simple answer. Everyone does it their own way and you can make a lot of approaches work.


Check out Troy Grady on youtube (or his own website) for some discussion.
Troy Grady
- YouTube

[docbop]

The most efficient picking technique is the one that works for you. Everybody is different and because something works for one person doesn't guarantee it will work for you.

I'd say before throwing in the towel on what you're currently doing, closely watch and listen to yourself picking and make adjustments and see if that fixes things. Easier to make some minor adjustments based on listening, than start down a path if you don't need to.

[christianm77]

Economy is always the most efficient IMO.

Efficiency is not necessarily the goal for the jazz improviser.

[Robertkoa]

I think all of you who are looking for Very Advanced Picking for Versatility and seeing a lot of close ups -
you will have to figure it out but absolutely one of the Top 10 of all time for Jazz and probably even higher is this Guy who was recently mentioned on this Forum .

I use a MENTALLY efficient[ SIMPLE ] way of picking now called ' cross picking' ..which Alternates Always ..so I play an upstroke or a downstroke then skip a string or skip two strings or Arpeggiate and don't have to think - HOWEVER - people who teach say this does not work for most people [ and teachers probably know better than I ].

Now this Guy- sonically IF he is using Economy or Sweep ( don't know - don't care ) is one Guy who you can't tell Sonically - a good thing !

Mike Moreno -he uses Alternate and Economy according to what HE says - and he sounds completely normal also - a good thing.

Now - I will leave you Guys to dissect what this Player is doing- but it works nearly perfectly - and again as Christian said you don't necessarily want
Efficiency as in Economy of Movement you want something that does Scales Arps Intervals Rhythm Speed Articulation with one basic right hand Plectrum Command Position.
( sounds like a bad Video Game ).

Not sure if Chico has a* Beast/ Rhythmic / Shred Mode- great IF you can learn to only do it maybe 2 to 5% of the Time- but I imagine he does ....

*Near Sax Like speed and Rhythm let's say similar to Benson or Kriesburg..not sure if he does that- and remember - whether you are using a pick - you must Alternate most of the time to do this- regardless of knife grip ( Benson, Eric Gales etc.) or conventional grip.

OR if Classical / Flamenco etc. you must Alternate fingers I and M to do it whether rest strokes or free strokes (free strokes weaker with with mostly nails )- all the Ètudes with Tremolo stress this even sounding I and M for scalar Passages.
Take a brilliant Classical or Flamencist and start switching the simple alternating motion away and give him rules and you will kill much of his chops.

There MAY be workarounds and partial workarounds for lack of string skipping - but there is NO workaround for mediocre fundamental skills like even sounding alternate picking with I and M or picking with even sounding Up and Downstrokes with pick.(alternating ).





He has everything you could *want and uses it tastefully and creatively, effortlessly ,Rhythmically etc. and has none of the ' careful' timid quality of some Pickers in Modern Jazz...I like him for his Music but there are many close ups of his right hand which may help some of you.



You have lots of Videos besides this one and maybe it can help you. Once you have fundamentals down strong.

As always I will remind you that Alternate Picking will STILL be a major portion of your 'Notes' at ANY medium or high Tempo ( or 16th and 32 nd Note Divisions )-
REGARDLESS of how you cross strings or skip strings.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=Robertkoa;783326]I think all of you who are looking for Very Advanced Picking for Versatility and seeing a lot of close ups -
you will have to figure it out but absolutely one of the Top 10 of all time for Jazz and probably even higher is this Guy who was recently mentioned on this Forum .>>

I've had an opportunity to study with Chico. He told me that he doesn't change pick direction on string skips (iirc), which I understood to mean that he is an economy picker. He's as fast and clean as anybody I've seen up close, all while still playing great lines.

This song, Triades, which he wrote, strikes me as a natural for finger picking (I learned it from his chart), but being able to play it with a pick is remarkable.

After the first time I heard him in concert, I came away with the feeling that I don't play the same instrument as he does. He's a truly gifted musician.

[Moonray]

Hi rpjazzguitar ....I loved that clip and have been working on playing fingerstyle
oriented music with pick only for a few years....Chico's nailed it alright....very inspiring.

You mentioned learning the song from his chart.

That got me doing some sleuthing on the web but can't find any chart for Triades.
I wonder if you could point me in the right direction.

You probably know already about a small collection of PDF's on Chico's website.

chico-pinheiro

Thanks are due in advance if you could help.

[christianm77]

Thanks for introducing me to Chico, what a lovely player - that's my favourite type of technique... That which is purely at the disposal of the song.

These types of cross picking figures are not really economy pick-able. But - from what I am able to ascertain, it looks like Chico's left hand is basically DWPS, and he is playing down down up on the arpeggios, rather than alternate, which is a common approach to bluegrass cross picking figures as well.

[JakeAcci]

I spent a long time purely alternating almost everything - maybe 10+ years since the beginning of playing, then I learned economy picking and in the past few years and have tried to be more fluid, rhythmic, and expressive with it.

I've thought and worked quite a lot on picking technique and make some good strides. These days I look at pros and cons of different approaches for different passages and sounds, rather than a blanket "____ is always better" approach.

For example, I wrote an etude recently that has a lot of string skips and for me it's easier to do alternate - not because alternate is more efficient but just because it's a motion I've spent a lot of time on. So maybe re-doing that motion w economy or hybrid or something would yield better results...but I can play it with alt picking now.

I also think now that 'pick slanting' is somewhat common knowledge, it's really missing out to think of economy/alternate without putting slanting into the equation.

[mr. beaumont]

The most important thing to take from that (excellent) Chico clip is that the music dictated the picking, not the other way around.

It's important to have fluency in different types of picking, even if you have a "default" style.

[christianm77]

I spent a long time purely alternating almost everything - maybe 10+ years since the beginning of playing, then I learned economy picking and in the past few years and have tried to be more fluid, rhythmic, and expressive with it.

I've thought and worked quite a lot on picking technique and make some good strides. These days I look at pros and cons of different approaches for different passages and sounds, rather than a blanket "____ is always better" approach.

For example, I wrote an etude recently that has a lot of string skips and for me it's easier to do alternate - not because alternate is more efficient but just because it's a motion I've spent a lot of time on. So maybe re-doing that motion w economy or hybrid or something would yield better results...but I can play it with alt picking now.

Yes, why bother? Alternate is the other cross picking strategy.

In my case, DWPS is very good for string skipping. I don't really find skipping a huge problem.

I also think now that 'pick slanting' is somewhat common knowledge, it's really missing out to think of economy/alternate without putting slanting into the equation.

Indeed.

[christianm77]

The most important thing to take from that (excellent) Chico clip is that the music dictated the picking, not the other way around.

It's important to have fluency in different types of picking, even if you have a "default" style.

How do you think he practiced it then?

[JakeAcci]

Yes, why bother?

I mean, I guess I look at a lot of variables in the equation...

Say your* goal for a certain passage is a certain tempo while maintaining your desired accents, feel, pick angle, etc, all the things that contribute to tone, blah, blah, etc. But tempo is obviously the most objective.

Saw with your current technique you have to improve your tempo Y% to reach a tempo goal of X, and you want to get to X in as little time (T) as possible.

This is what I've found:
1. If I'm already comfortable with one technique it may be possible I may be able to get to X - but sometimes it's not, or it would take an enormous amount of time, so much that the project isn't even worth pursuing.

2. Adapting a new technique might be a waste because of all the time it takes to re-learn, OR it might wind up taking much less time because the technique is just that much more efficient and adaptable for that particular piece/passage.

Things are different depending on:
A. How big or small Y is
B. How close you feel you might be to your physiological 'limit' with a certain technique (at a wall, so a different technique may allow you to blast past that) - it's different if you've only been working on say, alternate picking for one year, the sky may be the limit at least % wise, but if you've been hammering away for a few decades I'd imagine you're not going to see big improvements % wise in short periods of time without changing technique or approach dramatically
C. How much time you want to take.

When we get into "how fast can you move your pick and coordinate your hands" it is basically a sports science kind of thing, right? All these variables of adaptations, physics of the movement, blah blah. I think these conversations go on so long because there's all of THAT stuff in addition to the musical considerations. And most musicians that I know aren't sports scientists, or scientists at all.


*the general "you")

[mr. beaumont]

How do you think he practiced it then?

Practiced what, this particular tune, or picking in general?

[christianm77]

Practiced what, this particular tune, or picking in general?

That particular tune... has an etude feeling about it...

[mr. beaumont]

That particular tune... has an etude feeling about it...

I dunno.

If it was indeed an etude, then yeah, the picking dictated the music, I suppose.

If he heard it first, then I'd say as he was working it out, he figured out pretty fast what kind of picking he was going to need to do to pull it off, and if it was uncomfortable, there was some shed time.

Pinheiro's a damn fluent player, though, my guess is he had more than one picking style in his bag already.

[rpjazzguitar]

I dunno.

If it was indeed an etude, then yeah, the picking dictated the music, I suppose.

If he heard it first, then I'd say as he was working it out, he figured out pretty fast what kind of picking he was going to need to do to pull it off, and if it was uncomfortable, there was some shed time.

Pinheiro's a damn fluent player, though, my guess is he had more than one picking style in his bag already.

Chico was featured in GP a couple of years ago. Two pages, I think. He spoke about fluency and "harmonic ears" in the interview.

I believe that he generally economy picks, if I understand that term correctly. He also plays classical style fingerstyle and has the ability to secrete the pick in his palm, back and forth, instantaneously. His technique is faster and cleaner than seems possible. In a class I took from him, he demonstrated the melody on a tune called Curumim repeatedly, never flubbing anything -- at very high speed. I assumed that he was using some tricks to finger it (I was only able to get close to tempo with some oddball position shifts or use of open strings). But, when I watched him closely, he was using a completely obvious fingering -- but one that required speed and precision with the pick that I can't imagine ever achieving. Same thing on several written-out passages (on youtube check out the interlude on Popo, or Se Depender Do Mim, or the opening bars of Tema Em Tres). And, although he plays a beautiful Benedetto, I have heard him do these things on my spare guitar, a stock nylon Yamaha Silent Guitar. It ain't the guitar.

He has a recognizable sound. I think the Benedetto helps, because it has a distinctive tone. But, his harmonic conception is such that he always sounds like himself. I've heard him demonstrate lines over a ii-V-I in Cmajor and sound like himself. As far as I can tell, he was playing D dorian Galt and Csomething-or-other. It seemed like the way he approached the Galt was unique. I can't explain it and I don't have a recording. It's some combination of the scale and, more, the melody he chose.

And, while we have been discussing his soloing, I think his comping may even be more spectacular. I have heard him drive a band with the guitar in a way I've never heard anyone else approach. This is a combination of rhythmic feel and chord/fragment choices. His groups also have the most dramatic use of dynamics, whisper to a scream, that I've ever heard. I'm thinking primarily of a tour he did with the guys from Trio Corrente and a brilliant singer named Luciana Alves.

[rpjazzguitar]

http://dannygreen.net/wp-content/upl...o-Pinheiro.pdf

This links to a transcription of Chico's solo on Popo. Probably the version on the original album. Danny Green, an excellent pianist based in San Diego (with a couple of terrific CDs out) did the transcription. There is an annotated version as well, with an analysis, but I don't have that one.

I'd analyze the fist two bars (not counting the very first note in the pickup) as Dlyd. Bar 3 starts with an Fmajor triad, which makes sense because the chord is close to F/B. These notes are heard as b9 #11 b7. Bar 4 is a descending augmented figure.

Check out bar 17. Against an F#7alt, his first note is an F natural. In bar 18, he begins with a D# against a Bsus -- he seems to be emphasizing the 3rd in a sus chord.

It seems to me that this sort of "explains" why his solos can be ear twisting. But, I never hear a bad note.

And, this is all done on the fly. He's got some things worked out, but he's an improviser, not a set-piece player.

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be a competent analyzer or theoretician and I'm quite confident that others may offer more penetrating analyses. Chico is a Berklee grad and is well versed in theory. I think he's the rare individual who knows the math, and, more importantly, hears it all and can apply it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Bar 6. How did he finger it?

I suspect he started at the 7th fret, first finger. Hit the C# with his third finger and the next three notes as a descending Gmaj triad on strings 3, 4 and 5. I guess great sweepers can nail that at speed and make it sound clean.

I'll never be able to do that. I can run the notes together and play them muddy. Chico has them clean.

I'd probably hit the C# with my 4th finger and then quickly move my hand so that I could play the D on the third string with my 4th finger. Then pull off to the B. Play the G with the second finger and then stretch the 4th finger up to the A#.

It could also work playing the F# on the G string, catching the C# with the 1st finger and the D 4th string 12th fret. That solves the sweep picking problem, but makes it more awkward to get into the 6th position for bar 8.

Other ideas?

[princeplanet]

Most efficient way of picking? I'm gonna go with "holding it with the fingers". With the toes just looks weird, and between the teeth causes, um, teethmarks...

I've seen those Sumo Wrestler type dudes with the giant picks wedged in between their buttocks, that's pretty cool and I'd probably go for that, except I can't seem to get enough grip. I mean I can do that Gambale/Yngwie sweep shit ok, but as soon as I try wide interval/string skipping, it's comin' outta my ass don't worry

[Vladan]

Bar 6. How did he finger it?

... makes it more awkward to get into the 6th position for bar 8.

...

As far as bars 6, 7 and 8, it's all there in positions IX and X, no need to go to VI.

[rpjazzguitar]

As far as bars 6, 7 and 8, it's all there in positions IX and X, no need to go to VI.

All the notes are there with a stretch mostly for the A# in bar 6.

But, to get it fluent, you have to think about bars 5 and 8.

The last note in bar 5 ... I end up on the third finger IX position. I have reason to believe that Chico often flattens the second finger to play aug triads.

In order to end bar 5 with the first finger on that B note (which facilitates bar 6 at IX) -how do you get there? I can't find a way that isn't awkward. Also, the line in bars 1, 2 and 3 sure looks like something played around IV or V. That grace note in bar 3 looks like a slide on the first string. Yes, it could be played on the B string at XVI, but it just strikes me as an unusual way for a guitarist to think about it. Yet, it could be right.

I end up starting bar 6 at VII and playing the obvious descending G major trial at VII. Bar 6, beat 2, is awkward that way, but it gets easier with bar 7 at VI and bar 8 itself which includes a line that most players would play at VI, although maybe Chico is the exception.

Anyway, the line contains unusual features both melodically and picking-wise. Quick, non-obvious, position shifts?

And, consider bar 6. Esus13. It starts innocently enough with a 9 and 13.

Now, the next three notes are D, B, G. Is this a descending G major triad? I mean, it is, but is he thinking Gmaj against Esus? Or should we think of it as 7 and 5 (of the Esus13) and then the start of a 5 note phrase that's leading away from the sus sound to an Edominant sound?

For that matter, do you play VI beat 2 all on the same string?

I haven't found the key to this, if there is one. I think one issue is that Chico has some mastery of the fretboard and pick which I don't have.

Sorry for the ramble.

[rpjazzguitar]

The original recording, with that solo, is on youtube. And, youtube allows you to slow it down.

So, I listened to bar 6. I can't hear that G at the end of beat 1. I'm also not sure about the first G in beat 2. It sounds like it may be G#.

If those two G's aren't really there or are G#s, then the fingering becomes way easier and more typical of the way I suspect guitarists move their fingers.

In fact, if they are both G#'s the fingering is fairly comfortable.

[Vladan]

All the notes are there with a stretch mostly for the A# in bar 6.

But, to get it fluent, you have to think about bars 5 and 8.

The last note in bar 5 ... I end up on the third finger IX position. I have reason to believe that Chico often flattens the second finger ...

Well, you and Chico seem to have some history, so I'll leave you two alone, just will mention, as far as I can see, the last note of the 5th bar is B and I can not see any half reasonable way to play that B by using 3rd finger in 9th position.

As far as I can see, 1-8, at least, it's all btw the 8th and and the 13th fret, positions VIII to X, doing it fluidly is matter of rehearsal.

Obviously, I can not see as far and deep as you can, therefore, I'm out of any further discussion about this topic.

[Cunamara]

Back to the original question... however flamenco players pick is probably the most efficient way to do it. They are faster and cleaner than all but a few pick players. A few years back Jack Zucker posted some links to videos by someone he knew, a guitarist with a French sounding name, who played electric guitar in the classical fingering style- superbly fluid and efficient. I think that it is likely that the most efficient way to pick is to not use a pick. Of course, I still use one because the tone is right, compared to fingers on steel strings. But I really love playing finger style on nylon strings; having all those fingers available canes how I think musically in a way that my hybrid pick-and-fingers approach doesn't.