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I'm a fairly advanced jazz guitarist and used to play out pretty regularly (though not as much the last few years). And unlike the last 20 years, I'm now in a position where I can afford a killer archtop.
I've been playing an Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor II for like 10 years. I actually really like it: I feel that it is a nice middle ground between a full size 17" archtop and some of the smaller 15" and less guitars. I actually like the JP more than ES-175's that I've played (I've played reissues and a few vintage - not saying I'm an expert or have played a truly great ES175, just saying that of the one's I've played, I like my Joe Pass Epiphone better.)
Other preferences:
- Price: $3000-6000
- 16" body although I could be convinced otherwise
- Needs to have reasonable feedback control as I play amplified a fair amount
- This guitar only needs to do jazz - I have other guitars for fusion/blues/funk
- For jazz guitars, I really like a reasonably loud acoustic tone. This is for a few reasons including the very practical reason of it makes me want to just pick it up and play without needing to plug in. My Gibson ES-335 sounds perfectly respectable for jazz plugged in, but is no fun to just play acoustic (at least compared to an archtop)
- The Joe Pass Epiphone has nut of 1 11/16th, and that is comfortable to me, but I'm sure 1.75 would be fine too
- I am agnostic on the "laminate vs carved" debate: as long as it has good feedback control and a nice acoustic sound, I'm fine either way. Doesn't need to be loud enough to play acoustic gigs (which I know, if that is a requirement, then carved 17" is the way to go).
The 3-4 guitars that are currently high on my list are:
- Sadowsky Jim Hall
- Sadowsky LS-17 (though I wonder if this will feel too different/big vs. what I'm use to, as this is a 17" body)
- Benedetto Bravo
- Campellone Standard
Anyone have thoughts on this? Any well-known, well-regarding brands that I should be considering that are in this quality/price level?
Thanks!Last edited by gavinashun; 03-19-2018 at 08:07 PM.
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03-19-2018 07:19 PM
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I have owned two of the four you mentioned. I had a Bravo and a Campellone Standard. The Campellone is one of the few guitars I have sold that I wish I still had. A lovely instrument. But, the floating pickup could create some feedback control challenges depending on the venue & volume.
I also had an older Fender-era Bravo, and that also was a nice guitar that sounded great. But, I never fully bonded with it. The neck radius felt too flat or something.
A friend has a Sadowski Jim Hall. Actually he has two, and I may convince him to sell me one. That is also a lovely guitar, and may fit the bill well for what you are looking for.
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L-5 is the guitar to beat imo and your price will get you one. It is 17” but is exceedingly comfortable. A Tal is also a great guitar to check out but is also 17” and might be similar to the LS-17 (I haven’t played that Sadowsky model but they look great). You won’t get as much of an acoustic sound from the Tal vs. an L5 but you will save quite a bit of money between the two. Other than a really good 175, those are the two guitars to beat for a great jazz sound.
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Thanks for reply - I've never played the Tal Farlow - will have to check that out. Yeah and L-5 or LS-17 are both great options.
Originally Posted by rio
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Cool - yeah the Campellone's seem awesome. I'm dying to play the Jim Hall: spec wise I think this is exactly what I'm looking for. Originally Posted by Mark M.
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Sadowsky Jim Hall 2016 Originally Posted by gavinashun
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In your price range i would go for a gibson L5 or a gibson ES-175. Which would be 2 classic solutions for an all solid electric type archtop sound, or a laminate, band friendly and feedback resistant sound. A third option would be an instrument with a floating pickup and all solid woods, aiming for a more acoustic modern type of sound (like say a Campellone). To me these are the three more prominent schools or archtop sound, the forth being an all acoustic guitar like the Gibson L-7 (which of course you may choose to amplify as well).
Really at this quality level every brand (and even model) has its own sound, and it is a matter of taste what you would prefer, so i would suggest trying out as many instruments as you can before investing that kind of money.
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I’m selling my Gibson VOS ES-175:
Gibson ES-175 1959 Historic VOS 2012 Sunburst | Reverb
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I think the Benedetto Bravo is very hard to beat. I would take one over a Gibson, but I'm probably in the minority here in that. Far more members own Gibsons, and they're fanatically loyal, so that's mostly what you'll have recommended.
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No affiliation... but this is what you are looking for...Campellone Custom from Ted Krause collection
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With that budget, I'd call CB Hill in California.
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Are resale value a major consideration? If so, your options are more limited. Most likely a used Gibson. You might be able to venture out into some of the other makes you already listed.
If finding your guitar is more important, you might consider a guitar from a boutique builder. What your asking for, a sweet acoustic archtop that doesn’t feed back, is just about the hardest thing to achieve as a luthier. But you will probably have a better chance of getting there if you tell the luthier building your guitar what you want and what compromises you can live with.
I believe Matt Cushman of this very forum scratch builds well regarded custom archtop guitars for the low end of your range. The beautiful reproductions made by Daniel Slaman are in the middle to high end. There are at least a dozen more I can think of.
A hand made guitar built specifically for you is not for everybody. But if you can afford it, you would be doing yourself a disservice not to consider one.
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The first 3 guitars on your list are laminate construction. The Campellone is a carved top which requires more time for the luthier.
The advantage of a laminate is less prone to feedback as well as temp changes, especially humidity.
Disadvantage is the crbed top has a better acoustic tone!
Consider Campellone as well as Franz Elferink for making great carved tops at very reasonable prices, especially used!
Eastman 810CE and JP880 models are also great for the low $$ but they are thinner carves vs. the more thicker Gibson style offerings, like the 2 makers mentioned above.
Bottom line, you can get a lot more than yoou pay for with the above mentioned guitars.
Welcome to the club!
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Not too worried about resale value ... if it's a guitar I can play before I buy. I definitely keep my guitars a long time if I love them. But if buying brand new, ideally I'd like a guitar I could resell if I didn't bond. That's why used is a nice option: like those two links above to the Jim Hall and Campellone, since those are prices I imagine I could get back in resale if I took the plunge and didn't bond. Originally Posted by rlrhett
One point I should have been more clear on - when I say "no feedback" I mean relative to an archtop. Obviously there is no archtop that will have zero feedback at high volume, compared to an es-335 or something with a block. But I mean relative to other archtop guitars, as little feedback as possible is what I meant.
It is actually something I worry about regarding the Campellone - my sense is that floating pickups tend to have more feedback ... but I don't know if this is a 100% fact or not, though it does seem like the consensus in reading about this topic online.
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Thanks! Yeah the more I've been reading, the more I think I want a fixed vs. floating pickup, since it really seems like that is important for feedback resistance. Additionally, it does seem like there is a consensus that laminate is superior for feedback resistance. Originally Posted by jads57
The first 3 guitars on your list are laminate construction. The Campellone is a carved top which requires more time for the luthier.
The advantage of a laminate is less prone to feedback as well as temp changes, especially humidity.
Disadvantage is the crbed top has a better acoustic tone!
Consider Campellone as well as Franz Elferink for making great carved tops at very reasonable prices, especially used!
Eastman 810CE and JP880 models are also great for the low $$ but they are thinner carves vs. the more thicker Gibson style offerings, like the 2 makers mentioned above.
Bottom line, you can get a lot more than yoou pay for with the above mentioned guitars.
Welcome to the club!
For both of those reasons, it seems the first 3 guitars are better options for me: those 3 are all fixed pup and laminate.
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16" carved archtop? Hmm, I'd say a Bill Comins Concert Classic or a Steve Andersen Streamline. The Gibson L5CES is the safe choice: can't go wrong with that. How about a 16" L-4CES? The Ribbecke Halfling Jazz is another. The Campellone is a great choice, firmly in the Gibson camp. You can find them used.
Somehow great acoustic tone and laminate tops don't seem to go hand in hand. The Sadowsky JH may have have a functionally loud acoustic tone but I won't call it a great acoustic tone compared to a carved spruce or cedar top unless you happen to like that flavour.
If acoustic tone is a priority I would check out, in no particular order, the Andersen Streamline, $5600 new/$3600-$4200 used; Bill Comins Concert Classic $8500 new/$4500-$5000 used; Ribbecke Halfling JAZZ, $4000 to $4500 used; Campellone Deluxe $5750 new/$4000-$4500 used.
I'd be remiss not to mention the 17" Guild Artist Award. About $3000 to $3250 used. The Guild scale length is a little....uh....longish. Some have issues. Some don't.
You could treat feedback with f-hole foam plugs or stuff them with balloons when you have a need to.
OK, I always ramble. For $6000, get a twofer: a used L-4CES and a used Sadowsky Jim Hall. If you are adventurous I would let you know where to get the Sadowsky JH for about $3000 to $3500 used...namely, import from Japan. (In 2011, one sold on ebay out of Hawaii for under $2500.)
PS Benedetto Savannah Bravo is best bought used for under $3000. I think the L-4CES is a far better guitar for the same coin.
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This sounds like a very difficult and tiresome predicament you’ve got yourself into.
You’ll just have to try lots and lots of nice guitars.
My sympathies.
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About the Benedetto Bravo: I had one for a few years and loved everything about it except the sound. I don’t know if it was the laminated spruce top, the pickup, or that it’s just the Benedetto “sound”, but it was just too bright for me. Now, I like brightness as an optional tonal choice, but I could never get that dark, smokey tone that the 175 is noted for.
About the Sadowsky Jim Hall: I had the opportunity to buy one and didn’t jump at the chance. But then again part of the reason was this: the Jim Hall model is based on Jim’s D’Aquisto which was modeled after his famous 175 that he played for about 20 years. Being a huge Jim Hall fan I have to say that the tone he got from his 175 is my favorite out of the three. There’s just something about a Gibson archtop that is hard to replicate, similar to Fender guitars; I’ve never played or heard a Strat or Tele-type guitar by any other maker sound like a Fender. Some get closer than others, but none really nail it. Not even G&L.
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+1 Originally Posted by christianm77
btw there is a very nice Holst on Reverb right now. Priced at bit high at $3,100 given it's used and Steve will build you one for $3,300, but this way you avoid the building period...besides, even at $3,300 Steve's guitars are a great deal.
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Yeah what a drag .... Originally Posted by christianm77
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If you’ve been playing a 1& 11/16” nut width for 10 years, do not assume that 1 3/4” will be OK! It might be, but you need to be SURE before you buy or because if it doesn’t work for you, you will be very very unhappy. Even you have big hands and the larger nut is not too “big” for you, it feels so different, it can be a huge point of frustration.
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Benedetto Bravos do not sound like ES175s. That should not be a surprise. Nor will any of the other guitars on the OP's list. Not everyone prefers the ES175 sound. There is some difference between a 1-11/16" nut and a 1-3/4" nut, but I can deal with either. Not everyone can, and that's an individual preference. If the narrower nut is a requirement, the Benedetto Bambino Deluxe is somewhat similar, and has the narrower nut. I have a Deluxe, and sort of lust after a Bravo, but I currently make do with my Eastman T145 for a thinline with 1.75" nut, and a carved top. They sound different, but that shouldn't surprise anyone either. I have several archtops, and they all sound different, even with a lot of EQ. That's part of their attraction to me.
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If you’re referring to my post I’d like to clarify the point I was trying to make. The Sadowsky Jim Hall model is a copy of a copy of Jim Hall’s 175. Also, I bought my Bravo from Tom Van Hoose who told me that it was a “175 killer”. I soon realized that, tonally, it’s nothing like a 175, which is able to do bright (think of Pat Metheny’s early recordings with that jangly tone) and dark (like Jim Hall). The Bravo is aimed at players who favor the bright sound and I found it very difficult to dial in a darker, fatter sound. I’m not saying the bright sound is “bad”, just that that’s what Benedettos are known for. All this is to inform the author of the OP. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Steven Andersen "Streamline".... Handmade, wonderful craftsmanship, lovely acoustic and electric tone, great neck and playability. Used ones go for around 4K, $5600 new.
Beautiful woods and elegant design but without fancy binding or pearl. I have not played a better guitar.
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Don´t turn down the tone pot and you will see that the 175 is not a dark sounding guitar. It has very nice airy highs and open mids. Originally Posted by El Fundo
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