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I would love to play around with a tube amp sound, but the amps most jazz players talk about tend to be gigantic, heavy, and terribly expensive in addition to require one to muck around in the innards periodically.
Maybe I'm not cut out for tube amps, but is there a tube amp out there that is pretty compact, clean, representative of the "tube sound," and doesn't require the owner to liquidate a trust fund and have an electricians license?
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11-11-2017 12:38 PM
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I own dozens of tube amps, maybe I can help.
At the extremes I have a little Fender Champ for practicing guitar and a pair of rack-mounted Ampeg SVT for bass gigs. And I own just about everything in between -- l own lots of vintage Fenders, a few Marshalls and Boogies as well as a few others. I own so many amps and cabinets that my house is crowded with them. I've been building amps from scratch for 40 years now. There's no rule that the amps have to be gigantic, heavy or terribly expensive, nor is there any reason that you'd have to muck around with their innards. Well-built tube amps are very reliable.
Would this amp be for playing at home or for gigging? How much volume do you need, and what sort of venues would you need to support? Will you have a PA system available? Contrary to what most people think, you can get by playing the biggest venues with a small amp, because any venue that's large will have FOH support, and all you need is a small combo amp and you can let them mic it. If the truth be told, that's what professional sound guys prefer -- a guitarist with a small amp that they can mic and run through the mix. If there's one thing that all sound guys love to hate it's guitarists with big rigs.
I'm thinking that for any sort of jazz application you could get by with a small, single speaker combo amp. Something like that would be small and portable, not all that heavy, it would provide adequate volume for just about any jazz application and it doesn't have to be expensive.
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Guess you meant to say small and portable...
Originally Posted by BeBob
Other than that I agree with all of the above. We'd need to know what you need it for - just for home, practice, rehearsal or gigs also?
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I have the head version of this:
VHT Special 6
$250, 27 lbs
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Originally Posted by medblues
Those have been on sale recently for dealers, my buddy just ordered three of them. Go to a local music store and they should be able to order you one and give you a good price.
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I quite liked the Fender Superchamp, cheap and good Fender cleans
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Until recently I've only been playing old vintage tube amps that I purchased back when they were new amps. I wouldn't recommend vintage amps now just because the vintage gear craze has made them so darned expensive that a boutique amp cottage industry has sprung up around them, being enabled by the high prices for vintage gear. But the vintage craze is old news. What's important is that now that we're living in the era of cheap Asian imports there are a lot of decent amp deals out there. It's quite amazing how cheap some of these amps can be. If you want to buy a new Fender you'll pay waaaaay too much because Fender makes you pay for the name. But there are some other manufacturers now who are aware of how much profit is built into the name brands and is competing by offering decent comparable gear for half the cost.
I had heard great reviews from friends who were gigging with the little Bugera V series combos, so I picked up one of these as a cheap amp to leave in a practice space. It currently sells at MF for $400 but I found the manufacturer selling refurbs on ebay with the full 3-year warranty for $250. At $250 it's quite a steal:
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Much to my surprise, although I purchased a used/refurbished amp I didn't receive a refurb'd amp -- when the distributor filled my order they just shipped a brand new production amp, shipped from the factory warehouse in factory sealed packaging. Being a "22W" amp it's plenty loud for jazz. It uses 2xEL84 that operate at a B+ that puts it right in that chimey Vox tone zone. The speaker is a 1x12 and it sounds very good. I like the amp as it is and I wouldn't consider changing the speaker. It's drawbacks? It uses digital reverb. Digital reverb sucks. Up to about 3 it sounds OK for adding a bit of ambiance to the signal, but it's no replacement for real spring reverb. And although it's clean channel sounds really nice, the gain channel is just worthless. I don't ever use it. But for an inexpensive tube amp with a warranty nothing comes close for the price.
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Fender Blues Jr. used!
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In addition to those excellent amps already mentioned above, here's a known tube tone monster...Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue.
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The Fender Princeton Reverb is a good example of a great sounding little amp that is priced way too high just because it's become legendary. I like my little old PR more as a little crank-it-for-blues amp than as a jazz amp. To someone like me, who can remember what they used to cost, the idea of paying $1000 for a current production micro-Fender just isn't acceptable. I like everything about that amp except it's $1000 price tag. To me, that $1000 price tag qualifies it as "terribly expensive" for what it is (using the Lawson-Stone terminology).
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For an extra $100, there's the Deluxe Reverb reissue, which moves you up to a 12" speaker which gives you a LOT more options in terms of flexibility in choosing speaker tone. but I find it hard to justify $1000 price point for those Fender reproductions when there are no-name brands that get you into the Fender tone zone at a fraction of the cost. No doubt about it, Fender amps cost more because of their famous name.
Fwiw when it comes to amp size: a PR is fine for small jazz gigs. James Chirillo uses a PR in his trio gigs and moves up to a Twin Reverb when he's playing big band jazz at the Lincoln Center.
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Like all things gear-related: what does "expensive" mean to you?? For $200, you'll have a fun practice amp; for $2000, the sky's the limit! There are too many options in-between, too, that are not gigantic, heavy, nor expensive, and that are compact, clean, and tube-y. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Others are asking great questions, too, about potential use (home, band, etc.), so help us help you with some more info.
Thanks!
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I agree 100% with Lawson-Stone that NEW PRRI amps are too expensive at $1,000.
But used can be found from around $750+ according to Reverb.
And Deluxe Reverb RI amps can be found (used) for around $800+. Not bad (in today's economy) for great sounding tube amps.
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i agree with ^..the vhts are great bang for the buck...i saw a friend play a trio date with a VHT Special 6 Ultra 6W and he was loud and clean
& they are handwired!...use a 6v6 output tube...and for a bit over 300$ you get one with a 12" speaker!
great cheap and easy way to get into tube amp sound...and easy enough to maintain, tweak & experiment with
cheers
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I'd steer you to a old Gemini 1 from the 60s in good shape. The sound is made for jazz, there are still parts on the off chance you need them and the dark blue patterned tolex and art deco good looks make it attractive in any living room. The ladies don't complain about this one. While the size may seem a bit large it isn't terribly heavy with the stock speaker and lighter if you use a Neo like the Eminence Deltalite pro 2512. Mine hasn't needed any work over the years. The reverb is great and the tremelo is the best there is with a softer transition. Best of all it will hold its value, sells for much less than a Fender and unlike modern reissues it has point to point wiring making any work easier.
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Thanks all!
I'm thinking of a small amp for practice, to use for recording clips for study groups (I still like them to sound good, though!), and for playing perhaps in small rooms with a garage-band type ensemble. I play basically L5ces and ES175 type guitars, both finger style and pick, solo and with others.
This has been really helpful. I wasn't sure what to think of the small tube-amps in the 200-300 range, but now I think I'll give them a good look.
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Don't forget the Peavey Delta Blues 115 in that price range. Very affordable and good cleans with the bigger speaker improving range.
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Lawson --
Slightly farther off the beaten track you may want to consider:
Fender Excelsior, $329 @ MusicGoRound. 15" speaker baybee!
Fender Music Master Bass, $400 on Reverb. This is the last echo of the Tweed ear for Fender. With a good 12" and about a half-hour's tweaking it's a real nice Princeton-esque amp on the cheap. You want the later 6V6 ones with a separate power switch.
Gibson GA-20RVT, $400 @ Guitar Center. 12" x 12 Watts. Personally, I like to stay in the 12A_7 / 6_6 neighborhood. This amp ventures outside, but a lotta people really like that. Plus you can always brag that you bought a 60s Gibson for four hundred bucks.
Same notion 50s style: Gibson BR-6, outside your range at $530 on Reverb. At 18W, with a modern speaker you could play a lot of gigs with this amp and show up in style. The look of these amps makes other players think you must sound good!
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Ampeg GVT 5 head, uber clean, no middle or gain. 6V6 and pedal friendly. Next time I find a used one I'll nab it. I have the 15 watt version with switchable output. I absolutely love this amp. Great for club gigs and small halls. It's hard to overdrive this amp but it takes pedals nicely.
Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 5. EL 84 and has overdrive. Useable for all styles. Their 18 Watter is full of tricks
Palmer Fab 5, a German take on a Fender champ,
their Drei head has 3 three different output valves which you blend for ultra O/D.
All of these deserve some sort of research.
But at the moment I'm really digging the Yamaha THR 10C. Yes, its digital, but it has all the best valve amp simulations.
I was messing around with the Deluxe setting and I thought I blew the speaker coz it farted. Then I realised the sound engineers had programmed the farty cabinet sound as I couldn't make it fart on the other settings. It's also amazingly loud for its size.
It has all the farty tonality without the dying valve headaches.
And its small enough to hide in the parlour without annoying my wife.
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I'm glad someone mentioned the prri, they are way overpriced going for around $2,000 for where I am, I could get a boutique hand-wired clone for around that
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You might look into vintage ampegs - there are deals to be had if you're patient. I picked up a 66 Reverbarocket about a year ago for $350 and that was AFTER the seller had run it through an amp tech for 3-prong update, a few new caps and an overall checkup and clean bill of health. Reverb to die for and warm, clean tube goodness. They were designed to stay clean and not break up, so less appealing for uses other than those tonal goals, guess that explains the value. I definitely fall into the tube camp, although I am enjoying an old Polytone I snagged off the local CL recently.
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L-S:
For the type of uses that you've described, I think you can simplify your amp search to considering "small bottle" vs "big bottle" tubes. The lower powered amps tend to use small bottle tubes, such as the EL84 or 6V6, and one pair of tubes may produce anywhere from 12-22 watts or so. Large bottle tubes, like the EL34 and 6V6 can produce 40-60 watts per pair.
12-20 watts can take you a long way at jazz volumes. Higher power means heavier transformers, more speakers, more weight and more money. You should be able to get everything you need out of a small bottle amp that runs either EL84 or 6V6 with a single speaker. Famous EL84 amps would include things like the Vox AC-15. Famous 6V6 amps would be the small Fenders. I can't imagine a better solution than any of the Fenders if your budget allows it.
If you don't want to pay Fender prices there are other options. Lots of people like the PV Classic 30, which is a 4xEL84 amp. It can be had used at good prices. Jon Stout has an interesting page on his site that mentions it:
Modern Gear for the Vintage Player — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander
At the lower end of the price spectrum are new production chinese amps like the Bugera V-22 which isn't a bad starter amp. I have friends who gig with it regularly. I use mine for practice and it covers that ground well.
I thought that the Fender Excelsior was designed to be kind of dirty sounding, and according to Fender it's not field serviceable. It's your basic disposable amp.
On the subject of old gear that's still inexpensive -- beware of the vintage Ampegs -- they are not popular for a reason. Many of them were designed around tubes that were perfectly fine at the time that they were designed, but those tubes are now out of production / extinct and can only be purchased as new old stock. All too often when I've told people the cost of retubing their amp they've offered to give their Ampeg Jet or something similar in trade for other work. Here's an interesting thread where technicians and amp designers discuss why old Ampegs aren't all that popular:
Why didn't Ampeg amps become more popular?
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Vintage 47 Spectator is what I recommend. 7w only, but the tone is amazing. I switched 5881 output tube for 6L6, and now it has more clean headroom enough for most situations. It doesn't have pristine cleans of course, like Twin or something, but that's the beauty of it. It's also light at 18 pounds, and compact.
V47 Valco Spectator
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Don't get the Blues Junior, not good for jazz at all. I've seen siverface non-reverb Princetons quite cheap in the US.
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The Gemini I was the amp I wanted when I was a teenager.
I couldn't afford it, so I got a Reverberocket. I still have it and it still sounds great.
I still watch CL for a Gemini.
I retubed the Reverberocket a couple of years ago. The 7591's are available from a couple of sources. I used JJ. They sound great.
6sl7 and 6sn7 were also available easily.
I read that thread. My amp doesn't use any of the hard to get tubes.
I don't know why Ampeg didn't become more popular. My guess is that it's the way they are voiced. To my ear, they sound a bit darker than Fenders. I've never really compared the distortion characteristics, but it makes sense to me that they weren't voiced for rock music. I'm not sure if the 60s Ampeg company made anything super loud either.
On the positive side, Ampeg reverb is the best I've ever heard. The amps aren't as expensive as old Fenders. They work well for jazz, IMO, and they aren't unnecessarily loud or heavy.
My Reverberocket worked reliably for about 35 years, except for a blown speaker. Then it developed an intermittent crackling problem which took years (and several trips to the shop) to diagnose. It turned out to be the wings on the little RCA jack that fed the reverb tank. Once I figured that out, I fixed in 10 seconds for free with a needlenose plier. Later, I recapped it and put in the three prong plug. It is still my favorite all-time amp, but I don't gig with it because I don't want it damaged.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-11-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Tube Set for Ampeg G12 Gemini I, G15 Gemini II - Product Details I've never had to get tubes but I'm always happy I can... This company has lots of neat parts, there are others too. There are a few of us on the forum who have and use these old Ampegs. It has been the most reliable amp I've owned.
For the more ambitious an amp that can handle it all is the mighty Twin Reverb which tend to go for less than the smaller ones. A good silver face with point to point wiring and a master volume can be found easily for $700- $750. You'll never need anything else and it can do the quiet stuff too.
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