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Hello all, new here on the forum, been playing guitar for a while now but just more recently getting into jazz. Just wondering if anyone had an opinion on this. I'm in the market for my first archtop. I have a few in mind, one of which being the epiphone century masterbuilt, particularly the zenith in a natural finish. I think it has nice acoustic qualities and good mid range which I like. Its also just about the only solid top I can find in my price range. I don't need a solid top but it's a plus. My one concern is the tone isn't quite as warm as I would like but I think this is mainly due to the fact that I've only heard it strung with the acoustic cleartone strings. I was wondering if any of you have tried stringing one of these with some jazzy style steal/chrome strings? If you have what were the results? Would you say the masterbuilts would be quality jazz boxes with that nice warm tone-a la Jim hall-if you put the right strings on them? Also how expensive do you think it would be to swap the piezo with a floating mini humbucker? Would that be possible? Thank you all for any input you have.
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11-03-2017 08:47 PM
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they look cool... and definitely a step in the right direction for epi...but they are really pitched to the singer songwriter crowd moreso than the jazzer..the piezo pickup will never get you that smokey classic 50's jazz tone...
acoustically they are mids focused..not a lot of warm lows or crisp highs..i anxiously tried them all when first issued and was dissappointed with their jazz tone
as is, the string change to more a more electric style string ie steel, nickel..will lessen the acoustic tone, and not make much difference to the piezo
piezos work off the vibration of the string, not the magnetic properties of the string...you could just as well use rubberbands!!
welcome aboard, btw
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 11-03-2017 at 10:55 PM. Reason: sp-
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I don't know where you're based but there's a great price one d'angelico exl series at gc at the moment (No affiliation) which are much more on the jazz side of things. Finding something (like the d'angelico) which is already floating him equipped might be a better option.
There's a thread about it on here somewhere.
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No.
If you want Jim Hall tone on a budget, check out a God in Kingpin (early P90 tone) or composer (humbucker) or an Epiphone 175.
Then spend 5-10 years transcribing Jim
nobody played like him.
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Some points of information:
Originally Posted by fgvd94
The Epi Masterbilt arch tops have pressed solid tops, not carved. So if you're thinking that this will get you something like an L5 on the cheap, it won't. Carved tops are much louder acoustically and have a different quality plugged in. The bigger Masterbilt (Deluxe) gets you a little closer to a carved top volume and tone than other pressed or laminated tops I've tried, but not all that much; the Zenith, not at all IMO. Changing strings won't make a lot of difference amplified.
Yes, its's possible to put a floating pup on this guitar, but it's not a simple swap. You'd probably need different pots and definitely different wiring, and you'd have to deal with the piezo system's battery. I think it would make more sense to put a humbucker on in addition to the piezo. A decent floater will be about $100, plus whatever the installation costs in your neck of the woods. In my neck of the woods (NYC), I'd count on at least another $75.
Jim Hall played laminated top guitars (ES 175 early on, then a couple of different D'Aquistos and a Sadowsky his last few years), with a set-in (not floating) pup. Neither a pressed nor a carved solid top with a floater is going to sound quite like any of these. If this is really what you want, there is a huge range of possibilities in laminated arch tops.
I've recently been through this process - I was looking for a guitar that could get a Jim Hall-ish tone plugged in, and would sound OK unplugged. I tried a bunch of different ones (including the Epis), and wound up with a Godin Kingpin (the one with no cutaway and a single pup). Not as loud as the Epi Century unplugged, but surprisingly close; great sound plugged in, very much in the early Jim Hall vein (e.g., the Sonny Rollins, Bill Evans, or Paul Desmond records). The Eastman A450 is similar, but a little fancier and more expensive. If non-cutaway is a deal breaker for you, I'd look at the Guild A150 , the Godin Composer, the Ibanez AKJV90D, and the Epi Premium ES 175. Definitely look at used guitars for all of these.
John
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In reference to carved tops being louder than pressed, that’s not always the case in my experience. The Gibson Solid Formed 17s I’ve played have been superb acoustic guitars and louder than many carved top guitars. Also, some of the old Gibson made pressed top guitars from the 30s are also impressive and loud acoustic guitars.
However, I have not found any modern pressed archtop guitars with poly finishes that I can say the same about.
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Get a cheap used electric Ibanez box. Once you are good enough, you'll know what you need.
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I concur. The Ibanez AF series guitars are an excellent value, offering very good performance characteristics at prices anyone can afford. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I can't imagine you will ever find a better deal than GC's current $599 on the D'Angelico EXL-1. Like many here, I have several nice jazzboxes and had no intention of being impressed by the EXL-1. Having played it yesterday, I keep trying to convince myself not to go back and grab one of the blonds... and do NOT need another guitar!
It's the best real jazz box you will ever find new for under $600! Don't walk, run.
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It would take me 50-100 years to get even a small grasp on Jim, but you are a better player than me! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Then spend 5-10 years transcribing Jim nobody played like him.
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I agree. You can go a long way with one of these at first, and may be all you ever really need. However, I’ve looked at several of these and the nut has been consistently cut way too high. If you get one, you’ll probably want a luthier to fix that to improve playability considerably. Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
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Also a floating mini humbucker. Totally different sound.
When I was a kid, I bought an Andrew Dawson "signed" bat. It didn't make me a better home run hitter, but it was still a better tool for the job than a golf club.
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The nuts are indeed cut a bit high on the EXL-1. I bought one to use as a beater. For the price I'm seriously considering routing it out for a top mounted humbucker.
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Thank you all for the information, it is incredibly helpful! Pretty cool because the other two guitars I had in mind (Godin 5th avenue kingpin and the exl-1) were both recommended on here. I also have been looking at a composer by Godin but they're a little more expensive. I actually got the opportunity to play the premier exl-1 at my local guitar center just earlier today and definitely thought it had amazing tone. Pretty much exactly the sound im looking for. I want to try a Godin though before I really make up my mind. I'm not a huge fan of the p90s but I heard a kingpin that had humbuckers on it once and thought it sounded great. I also think the neck profile of the Godin seams nice. I don't have particularly long fingers so the shorter scale length I think would be helpful. It has a thicker radius which i also like. A radius under about 12" makes my hand cramp for some reason but I'm not sure if the 16" of the Godin will be to thick. I'll have to find a shop around me that has one so I can play it before I make up my mind. But the exl-1 is defiantly seeming like a great value. Does anyone know if theres much of a difference between the premier exl1 and the other exl1 models like the excel series? I really liked the premier but it doesnt come in a natural finish like some of the other exl1 models. It looks like the excel series is more expensive but i do see that sale at GC for like 600 right now. Thats one hell of a deal that i might just have to snag before the sales up, even if I can't try the Godin before then. Thanks again for all the input!
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Check your definitions. Radius has nothing to do with thickness. Originally Posted by fgvd94
Also +1 on the Godin. I frequently end up borrowing one when I can't pack a guitar. Great instrument and definitely my favorite for the money. Can be found for under $500 used.
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Thanks for that bit of info! I had played a few guitars labeled as 12" radius that seamd to have a thicker neck than 9.5" on my old strat which always seams to make my hand cramp up. What exactly does neck radius refer to?
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Never mind I just looked it up. It has to do with the arc of the fingerboard across it's width. The thickness of my strat must just be a coincidence. Do manufactures generally not label the thickness of the neck? What would you say about the thickness of the Godin neck? I've heard a lot of people say it's really comfortable. The exl1 doesn't have a super thick neck but it's thicker than the guitar I have right now and I find that to be more comfortable.
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Necks are more often described in vague terms of profile ("C" "D" "V" shaped) than in precise numbers. It's not easy to get a sense of how a guitar neck feels from specs and ads. FWIW, I have an American Standard Strat. My Godin Kingpin feels a little wider and thicker (e.g., using my thumb for chords is a little more difficult), but not dramatically so. The only way to tell whether something is comfortable is to try it. But in my observation it doesn't make much difference to most people. All of my guitars have different neck profiles, but I have no trouble adapting. Originally Posted by fgvd94
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Thanks! Btw is there any reason you recommend the non cutaway kingpin with a single pup? Does it have more volume acoustically than the CW 2 version? Also how much roughly would it cost (if possible) to have the p90 swapped with a humbucker? I imagine it would require some sort of body modification to get the bucker to fit. I know Jim used regular humbuckers but I dont need that tone exactly and i kind of like the sound of a mini humbucker so I was thinking maybe the best option would be to get the 5th avenue that has no pickup an see if I could put a mini on that. That is if I don't end up just going with another brand. I like to be able to actually play a guitar before I buy it but there are no dealers any where near me that Carry Godin so I might end up going with something else.
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Remember, Jim made a whole lot of music with a P-90 in the neck of his 175...
Musicians Friend has carried a dual humbucker Kingpin in the past, there's one used at Reverb now for 1k...
The kingpin neck is what I'd call a medium D shape. Not particularly fat, not a lot of "shoulder." Most folks who play mine like it.
You really need to check out the current 175 from Epiphone. Slim profile neck, if you like that.
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I'm not necessarily recommending the non-cutaway over the CW 2 version; I just know it better because I have one (as does Mr. Beaumont, who has bunch of youtube demo'ing his), so I can tell you more about it. It does have more acoustic volume than the CW 2 version. That happens to matter to me and my uses, so I prefer it, but both versions are good. Originally Posted by fgvd94
I don't know how much it would cost to swap the P-90 for a humbucker. A regular sized one is a different size and shape, so you'd need to do some surgery (probably expensive, but I've never had this done) if you want one. There are P90 size humbuckers as well; search for that to get a sense of prices. FYI, a ton of JH's early records (e.g., the Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, and Paul Desmond stuff) is his ES 175 with a P90. I think the Kingpin is kind of it's own thing, and I think it's best leaving it alone if that's not the thing you happen to want, rather than trying to mod it into something else.
There's a guy on here (forgot his user name) who added a floater to an acoustic 5th Ave. He might be able to chime in that. Generally, that's a somewhat different sound from a set-in pup.
If there are other guitars you can actually play before buying, I think that's a lower risk proposition than buying something without trying, so I wouldn't try to talk you out of that.
John
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Which 30s guitars are Gibson made with pressed tops. The 30s instruments I'm aware of from Gibson were carved.
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Cromwell, Kalamazoo, Henry L Mason, etc. Originally Posted by Greentone
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For versatility, on a budget, I'd be considering the Epiphone ES175 Premium. Great guitar.
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