Epiphone Century Masterbilt for Jazz

[fgvd94]

I guess that's true, I just always think of that orange box he has with the humbucker when I think of him. But his old stuff with the p-90 sounds great. I always think of p-90s being to "hot" sounding I guess, but a lot of it really depends on your picking technique and your amp/the way you set your EQ. I'm not as partial to the more pointed (I think it's called Florentine) cutaway of the es-175 but tone and playability are really more important than looks so I'll have to see if I can try one out. Also eastman/guild as was previously recommended on here. I played one Ibanez artcore that I wasn't particularly fond of. Something about it just didn't feel quite right, at least not as good as the exl1.

[fgvd94]

That es-175 does sound really good. I'll have to try one, see if it feels right in my hands.

[2bornot2bop]

That es-175 does sound really good. I'll have to try one, see if it feels right in my hands.

check the thread archives on the epi es175 premium guitar...there are many. you'll find threads on the pro's con's of the guitar. their cost outweighs any negatives, IME. I'm not a slim neck fan, but I still own one, among other more expensive guitars, because the guitar is no less enjoyable. You'd have to avoid buying one that's marked USED, a manufacture refurbish...there are still new versions out there if you look.

[cosmic gumbo]

If you put any playable guitar in Jim Hall's hands, it would sound like Jim Hall. New players put too much emphasis on gear. It's more about getting something that makes you want to play often.

[fgvd94]

Yeah I think your right, it seems like technique is probably one of the biggest factors that go in to tone. So just enjoying your guitar enough to be playing often and improving technique is the most important thing.

[DanielleOM]

I did see one of those Epiphones as referenced in the orignal post at GC one day. I did not plug it in. My first impressions made me think that the guitar and sound was best suited for old style chunk chunk rhythm and I would not want to use it for chord melody or a lead instrument. Any one else come to that conclusion after playing one?

[BeBob]

For versatility, on a budget, I'd be considering the Epiphone ES175 Premium. Great guitar.

What's different about the Epi ES-175 Premium that makes it different from the previous model year ES-175? I don't remember there being all that much difference between those Epis, beyond the Premium using Gibson 57 Classics and imposing a serious price hike. IIRC all of the Epis that year got very minor feature changes to justify serious price increases.

If anyone is looking for an Epi ES-175 and is considering a pickup swap, then maybe the non-Premium would be worth looking for. They're certainly cheaper.

FWIW I really tried to bring home an ES-175 and a Joe Pass, but the skinny necks turned out to be a deal-breaker for me. I already have one Epi that doesn't get the love it deserves because all the Epi necks are so skinny. I think the EXL-1 is an improvement in that regard, it's neck is a bit thicker if that matters to anyone.

[h1pst3r88]

The Premium 175 has a lacquer finish where the previous Epi 175 did not.

-Chris

[BeBob]

Thanks. I had forgotten about that. Finish was supposed to be nitro, and pickups were supposed to be 57 Classic. Anything else?

[fgvd94]

Yeah the thicker neck is nice in my opinion. The masterbuilts have much thicker necks than most epis which is one of the things that turned me on initially. The exl1 isn't as thick but it's definitely thicker than most of the epis I've played and the strat I have. I also found I think one of the things I think that makes my hand cramp is a small nut width. I played this Ibanez today that seamd to have a little thicker neck than my guitar but it had a smaller nut width and It made my hand hurt as well. For some reason it seams like most of the guitar shops by me don't have much in the way of archtops. I can't find a epi 175 a guild a150 or any Godin around me to play. The a150s a little expensive but the soft U neck sounds apealing and I figured I could maybe find a used one for a decent price. But without being able to try any of these I think I'm gonna go with the exl1 before the sale ends on the 8th. It feels pretty good and I like the sound so I think it's a good pick for me at this point.

[2bornot2bop]

Thanks. I had forgotten about that. Finish was supposed to be nitro, and pickups were supposed to be 57 Classic. Anything else?

Yes, most of us here paid less than $440 for our Epi' premiums...about the same as the old Epi, but with lacquer and pickups...at that price, the guitar is a no brainer. I couldn't imagine a single individual buying a premi for list price...who does that? All of these guitars sold for less than list. Slim neck or not, the end result is sound...having moved on from cheaper guitars long ago the premi was an interesting find...I've never known any guitar that sounded as good or better than guitars I've owned worth $4k. That's great sound for 440...dollars not hertz

[Mike Anderson]

I'm in the market for my first archtop. I have a few in mind, one of which being the epiphone century masterbuilt, particularly the zenith in a natural finish.

Man, I feel your pain! I'm coming from a very different place stylistically since what I want to do is Western swing and vintage country, but the rest resonates. I had a discontinued model Korean-made Loar with floater for a time and made some headway but it wasn't making me happy due to some glaring faults induced by the former owner. Went on a long hiatus playing British Isles folk and am back in the archtop market with a hunger.

Back when I began my membership the lovely and talented Mr. Beaumont recommended the Fifth Avenue with P90 for its versatility. He did his best but I know I confused the issue something fierce due to my own ignorance, coming from a nylon (and incidentally percussion and voice) background, and I insisted on an instrument that could reproduce acoustic swing rhythm and be played electrically, on a budget . Wish I'd taken his advice, because at the end of the day I'd only want to play acoustically for my own amusement/practice, and in the intervening 3+ years I've heard nothing but good things about the Fifth Avenue Kingpin. I think I'm good to pull the trigger on one, and at that price maybe spring for a few pimpadelic upgrades, like some repro ES250 knobs and keystone tuners. If the Kingpin came with a CC instead of the P90 I'd walk barefoot across Pele's own front yard to get one.

This BTW was after a lot of agonizing about the new Epis which I learned about just a few months ago, so I'm glad they're mentioned here. I hoped and prayed that they'd be everything I've been dreaming about - affordable (which on my budget means "one guitar in order to maintain domestic harmony"), period-accurate, etc. Those tuners! But it seems that period-accurate is pretty much mostly cosmetically if I'm to believe everything I've read so far, just like the also much-anticipated Epi 75th Anniversay Electar repro amps. At least the guitars are getting some praise for being good for what they are; the amps were crapped upon from a great height the moment people started buying and reviewing them, sigh...

So yeah, agonizing decisions, but I'll add that from my relatively limited archtop experience (but good ears), something like the Godin is probably not a Jim Hall guitar. You sure picked a great role model though.

EDIT: I should add that my need to play electrically is the other Epi deal-breaker. No way in hell do I want to play through a piezo, so that means more $ for a floating pup, wiring and controls, and I hate that there’s already that fugly battery compartment which I consider a defacement at best... blech. Godin it is.

[BeBob]

But it seems that period-accurate is pretty much mostly cosmetically if I'm to believe everything I've read so far, just like the also much-anticipated Epi 75th Anniversay Elektar repro amps... the amps were crapped upon from a great height the moment people started buying and reviewing them, sigh...

Those 75th Anniversary Elektar amps had some definite problems with them as they came from the factory. The basic circuit design was quite sound -- it's basically a cross between a Brown and a Black Fender Deluxe with a lot of unnecessary filtration stages thrown on top of the circuit to shape it's tone.

The main problem with the amp was that when the Chinese contract manufacturer did the layout, they ran the inputs WAAAAY too close to the filament heater wires and as a result the amps had lots of AC line noise coupled into the signal. They sounded just awful. Lots of hum.

This created a secondary problem, where the engineers tried to eliminate the line noise by adding aggressive low-pass filtration stages in the preamp. The result was that the amp rolled off all of it's LF response in favor for a lot of middy/treble response. To be honest, I'm not sure if they did all of that filtration just to get rid of the noise, or if they did it because they were trying to emulate the sound of the early Epi/Gibson amps that had very poor LF response. Either way, the amp ended up being way too bright and attack-focused, and didn't produce the string fundamentals. I didn't like that characteristic.

I started out buy gutting mine and rewiring the filament supply. The Chinese labor's wiring technique was particularly sloppy, with very loosely coiled heater wires, accompanied by large loops in the heater wiring around the tubes, both of which are recipes for disaster when it comes to coupling AC line noise into the signal. The other major contributor to the noise problem was that the original design's PCB routed the incoming signal in close proximity to the AC filament supply on the chassis. The result was that a lot of noise was coupled into the signal. I eliminated that problem by rewiring the offensive parts of the circuit with shielded cable and adding a grounded shield to the preamp board, like you'd find in an old FM tuner. The result was that the amp was now very quiet.

Then I proceeded to rip out all of those unnecessary low pass and bandpass filters to make the amp pass a full bandwidth guitar signal so that it produced the real sound of a guitar.

One of the other problems with that Epi circuit is that it has a 3-way FMV tonestack (bass, middle, treble) without any adjustment potentiometers. They hard-wired a virtual tonestack onto the board using fixed value resistors, the result being an amp that had a tonestack that had been tweaked to provide a particular frequency response, but was not adjustable. I ripped out those fixed resistors and put a real FMV tonestack in it's place. Now the amp has tone controls that work like they should, and the amp is hard to tell apart from a Fender Deluxe. It sounds as good as it looks.

All things considered, I think it was a good design, but the Chinese ghost manufacturer ruined the amp with their poor assembly methods. Then, once Epi was stuck with the crappy chinese layout, they tried doing several ECNs to put band-aids on the amp's circuit rather than fixing the problem caused by the manufacturer. It could have been a really nice amp if they had only gotten a decent contract manufacturer to build it, but the Chinese shop they went with really screwed it up.

If you know someone who knows his way around an amp, just have him rebuild it paying attention to these points. It's worth it in the end.

[Mike Anderson]

If you know someone who knows his way around an amp, just have him rebuild it paying attention to these points. It's worth it in the end.

Thanks very much for this detailed reply Bob! If you want to take it offline with a PM that's fine, but I'm curious what you think a tech might charge for that level of work and would be grateful to hear your thoughts. I know nothing about amp circuits myself, but there are plenty of the amps on eBay and at the prices being asked, it might be a very economical idea as well as aesthetically pleasing.

Mike.

EDIT: Bob, just found your valuable comments in this thread, and I think your conclusion is what my gut is telling me anyway. I'll just get a better amp; Vintage47 looks ideal.