Gibson VOS 1959 ES-175D vs 1990s ES-165 vs 2016 ES-175D

**lawson-stone** · 10-17-2017, 03:43 PM

Here's a fun clip. I took the Jimmy Ranehy solo over Rhythm Changes in the Aebersold Volume 20 set that we've been working on the Raney/Aebersold group, and played it over the same backing track at the same (slower than Jimmy!) tempo. I played on 3 different guitars and the audio of this clip alternates among the 3, blacking out the visual except for an identifying number.

I'd be curious how clearly the tone of each of the 3 can be distinguished. All are played through a Polytone minibrute, recorded direct from the pre-amp output, with the same EQ settings. All have volume and tone on 10. My own playing is, of course, the inconsistent factor!

The guitars are (in random order):

VOS 1959 ES175D
1990's ES165
2016 ES175D "Figured" model

Which do you think is 1, 2, or 3 on the clip, and why?

This isn't a test or a trap, just a chance to play a game, have some fun, maybe learn something.

**Brian B** · 10-17-2017, 03:52 PM

I lose. Can't tell anything apart more than #2 I perceive as a bit louder than the others. All sound pretty good from where I sit.

Once the answers are revealed, I want to ask a question or two on the 165, as I just picked up an '98 Epi Zephyr Regent which is a bit of a distant cousin.

**citizenk74** · 10-17-2017, 03:54 PM

I'll be darned if I can detect any significant differences among them. I kind of like #2 best, by a micron, but that is probably because I liked those licks. In any case, it's an interesting exercise. Thanks!

**TedBPhx** · 10-17-2017, 04:08 PM

Can’t tell a difference. Must say the editing is superb! And the ability to play the piece three times with so little variation that it can be cut together so smoothly is impressive.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 10-17-2017, 04:12 PM

They all sound good (nice playing). I’m non sure that I can tell 1 and 3 apart, at least not through my phone’s speaker. 2 sounds distinctly different to me though. It’s the one I favor here, but I wonder if it would sound muddier doing chord work.

For the game, I have no idea which is which, but I will guess that your 175s both have newer 57s in them and that the 165 has an older version it it. That means I will guess that 2 is the 165.

**Greentone** · 10-17-2017, 04:13 PM

All three sounded great, to me. Like others who have ventured forth on this topic, I, too, like #2 best. :-)

**Stringswinger** · 10-17-2017, 04:23 PM

Yep, #2 sounds best to me as well. My guess:

1. ES 165
2 2016 Figured
3. VOS 1959

**ESCC** · 10-17-2017, 04:25 PM

. . . and the answer is all on the Epiphone 175???

Can't hear enough of a difference, liked them all.

**guido5** · 10-17-2017, 05:34 PM

I like 2 best. Rounder tone. More than likely a string type/age difference though...

**lawson-stone** · 10-17-2017, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by ESCC

. . . and the answer is all on the Epiphone 175???

Can't hear enough of a difference, liked them all.

i promise no tricks. The three guitars I named are the only ones used. I would not manipulate or trick the brain-trust of this forum! I need them too much!

**sgosnell** · 10-17-2017, 05:49 PM

I haven't listened yet, but based on the comment that #2 was louder, I'd hazard a guess that it's the favorite of some for that reason. Louder is almost always preferred.

After listening, I don't hear a huge difference in volume between any, but #2 is perhaps a little louder. That's probably because the pickup is marginally closer to the strings. I hear some difference between #3 and the others, and it has a thinner tone to my ears. Not drastic, just a little thinner. But I have no idea which is which. #1 and #2 are very similar, and if you told me they're the same guitar I could believe it. There will always be some difference in the sounds of any two guitars, even if they're the same model, same year, consecutive serial numbers, and there can easily be startling similarities in sound between two very different guitars. So I have no guesses at all. All three sound very good to me.

**lawson-stone** · 10-17-2017, 06:16 PM

For those interested in how I made this video, here's what I did.

First, I used a fully written out solo, Jimmy Raney's "Rhythm in Bb" from Vol. 20 of the Jamey Aebersold series. I used his backing track and filtered out the comping guitar, leaving just the bass and drums, so nothing would interfere with hearing the guitar I was playing.

I set the backing track at 180 bpm, which was the best I could do on the tempo. But faster would have also made it hard to hear the guitars' sustain and other tone features, so 180 works. I made a clip with each guitar in the shoot-out.

Using the program "Screenflow" I stacked the 3 clips and using it's high-res audio editing I aligned the clips so that when they played all three together, it really sounded perfectly simultaneous.

Next I selected all three clips and made cuts at about 4-7 second intervals--I didn't want to make a hash of the music, but didn't want each to be too long.

Then I took each 'stack' of 3 short segments, picked the one to use and deleted the other to in the stack.

last, I turned off the visibility of each clip and put a text box denoting the number of the guitar over each one.

Finally, rendered it out to MP4 video for uploading to YouTube.

Yes, it was kind of a big job, but not as hard as it probably sounds!

**Brian B** · 10-17-2017, 06:49 PM

Sooo...

Driving home I swing into the burger joint drive thru and while sitting in line, though "Why don't I link my cell phone via Bluetooth to my truck radio and give another listen...

Ok... #2 is definitely louder. I think it was more an exuberant player than the guitar itself, making it your recent NGD topic, the 2016.

Of 1 and 3, 3 was mentioned as being a bit "thinner" above, and I can hear that a little as well. Going to call that the 165.

Making #1 the VOS.

1 = VOS 1959
2 = 2016 Figured
3 = 165.

Yes Regis, that's my final answer...lol

(All really do sound good though, and I second the nice editing compliment here as well.)

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**Greentone** · 10-17-2017, 06:52 PM

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if #2 was the ES-165. My old single-pickup ES-175 had a thick, round tone for days.

**Brian B** · 10-17-2017, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if #2 was the ES-165. My old single-pickup ES-175 had a thick, round tone for days.

Which would really pique my curiosity, especially after my new acquisition;

Gibson VOS 1959 ES-175D vs 1990s ES-165 vs 2016 ES-175D-img_8731-jpg

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**lawson-stone** · 10-17-2017, 11:08 PM

Hi All
I did a comparison, same solo, between the 2016 ES175 and the Epiphone ES175 Premium in a separate thread just now. Same format: switching off between phrases, visual blacked out. After a couple days I'll "turn on the lights" to reveal which is which.

I don't care which is thought to be better, or whether anyone can or can't detect which is which. It's just another way to have fun with these guitars, which is what it's all about to me!

**r_cc_c** · 10-18-2017, 12:01 AM

here is my guess

1 = VOS 1959 ES175D
2 = 1990's ES165
3 = 2016 ES175D "Figured" model

**Cunamara** · 10-18-2017, 12:05 AM

I think the same order as Stringswinger. #1 is the ES165- thick but a tiny bit thinner and airier due to the more responsive top with only one pickup; #2 is the new ES-175 with the characteristic rounder thicker high end due to the second pickup reducing the acoustic response and the thicker top; #3 is the VOS version with a thinner top and lighter build, resulting in a bit more of an acoustic sound and just a little plink on the high E string (sorry, Lawson, I know you don't like the use of that word but it's how I hear it).

Of course the odds of my being wrong on any of these is one in three...

**yebdox** · 10-18-2017, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Yep, #2 sounds best to me as well. My guess:

1. ES 165
2 2016 Figured
3. VOS 1959

Stringswinger has my vote. I’m probably wrong, but the 165 has more upper mids, from my recollection, the figured should sound brighter with the thicker top and the vos has slightly less volume and more wood.

What’s the answer?

**gggomez** · 10-18-2017, 06:21 AM

I would also go
2 the 2016, I have a 2012 and it sounds the closest and the brightest more of a vibe which I like
3 the 59 cause it has a flat kind of thing going on
1 the 165, being the residual

Lawson your playing is sounding fantastic congrats

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**lawson-stone** · 10-18-2017, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

I think the same order as Stringswinger. #1 is the ES165- thick but a tiny bit thinner and airier due to the more responsive top with only one pickup; #2 is the new ES-175 with the characteristic rounder thicker high end due to the second pickup reducing the acoustic response and the thicker top; #3 is the VOS version with a thinner top and lighter build, resulting in a bit more of an acoustic sound and just a little plink on the high E string (sorry, Lawson, I know you don't like the use of that word but it's how I hear it).

Of course the odds of my being wrong on any of these is one in three...

It's not that I "don't like" the word "plink" or "plinky" but rather that it's not really a descriptive word. It's a statement of how the hearer feels about the tone, not a description of the tone itself. It doesn't convey anything to me. None of these 3 guitars sounds anything like what I'd call "plinky."

So no need to apologize, it's not that I don't "like" the word, it's just that it carries no information about the tone or the guitar itself.

**lawson-stone** · 10-18-2017, 07:08 AM

I will tell you guys this. When I was making this, I thought the 3 guitars sounded pretty distinct from each other, but then when I listened to the recording, I was surprised at how close they all were. I wonder how much of our ideas about these things come from our own playing, and from what we hear from 12 inches above the guitar instead of 12 feet out in front of the speaker? I wonder how much of the perception comes from our hearing the acoustic properties of the guitar as we play, from how it feels and resonates as we hold it, all of which does find it's way to those little bones in our inner ear by various routes (not just talking about psychology here).

Honestly, as I listen to this and read your responses, I have trouble remembering which was which!

**Marty Grass** · 10-18-2017, 11:46 AM

I suspect a lot of it is the "setting" or perception of non-musical cues. And there's nothing shameful about that.

To this day, when I see a Gibson headstock I expect a superior sound. That's irrational, but I'm completely conditioned this way.

Guitar #2 sounded fuller with a little of that bright sparkle Kenny Burrell had. #2 may have been a little louder, which could account for my impression. And it could be a sampling thing, meaning that if the solo went for another couple of minutes, the guitars may have sounded the same.

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I will tell you guys this. When I was making this, I thought the 3 guitars sounded pretty distinct from each other, but then when I listened to the recording, I was surprised at how close they all were. I wonder how much of our ideas about these things come from our own playing, and from what we hear from 12 inches above the guitar instead of 12 feet out in front of the speaker? I wonder how much of the perception comes from our hearing the acoustic properties of the guitar as we play, from how it feels and resonates as we hold it, all of which does find it's way to those little bones in our inner ear by various routes (not just talking about psychology here).

Honestly, as I listen to this and read your responses, I have trouble remembering which was which!

**John A.** · 10-18-2017, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Hi All
I did a comparison, same solo, between the 2016 ES175 and the Epiphone ES175 Premium in a separate thread just now. Same format: switching off between phrases, visual blacked out. After a couple days I'll "turn on the lights" to reveal which is which.

I don't care which is thought to be better, or whether anyone can or can't detect which is which. It's just another way to have fun with these guitars, which is what it's all about to me!

The definitely sound different to me - 1 is brighter and louder. I'm guessing 1 is the Epi because ISTR it's the brightest of your 175s. But all fall well within the spectrum of what 175s plugged into Polytones sound like.

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**Marty Grass** · 10-18-2017, 12:35 PM

I have a friend who is a very good guitarist and who likes Gibson Lucilles. Usually he had one ebony and one cherry. If he sold one, he sold both. If he bought another one, he'd get the second one also. He believed that the cherry finished guitars had a different sound than the ebony. He was certain. I thought that was nuts and just an excuse to justify two guitars.

Now I have one of each from the same run and with the same strings. I'm tempted to A/B them but probably won't for the following reasons.

1. It's stupid.
2. Even if there is a difference, my brain won't allow me to notice it due to my bias.
3. If I did hear a difference, I would ascribe it to some other factor than finish color because a fundamental belief I have about the universe is that the color of lacquer on a Gibson will not affect tone.

Obviously I'm not the guy to test this hypothesis.