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Hi,
I've been curious about tweed amps since I've been on a grant green kick lately. What are the tonal differences between the Harvard and the Deluxe? I've heard the Harvard described as cleaner and tighter, but if Rudy Van Gelder was using a Deluxe, then that's plenty "clean" for me. I figure I can always roll off some volume if it gets too hairy. Are there any great examples of jazz recordings with a Harvard? Any thoughts on how they compare? Thanks!
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10-15-2017 11:35 AM
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Ah, two of my very favorite amplifiers of all time.
I get to play through both a tweed Harvard and a tweed Deluxe regularly. My best friend owns a Harvard (and also a tweed Vibrolux), and I own a couple of tweed Deluxes. When we gig we bring tweed amps to the stage. The Deluxe and the Harvard (or Vibrolux) blend well together.
Both the Deluxe and the Harvard put out similar power--i.e., 12-watts and 10-watts, respectively. The cabinets are _similar_ in size, although the volume of the Deluxe cabinet is just a bit bigger--the Harvard employs the old tweed Princeton cabinet. The Deluxe uses a 12" Jensen P-12q speaker, while the Harvard used a P-10q. These are both alnico magnet speakers and each sounds terrific as a guitar speaker. Played cleanly, each amp gets a great, mid-rangey Fender tweed amp sound.
The chief difference is that the Deluxe is a cathode biased amp, whereas the Harvard is a fixed biased amp. This has to do with the way that the power tubes (each amp uses 6V6gt power tubes) are biased so as to operate efficiently--the preamp tubes are all cathode biased in both amps. The Deluxe employs an older biasing method, i.e., self-biasing cathode resistor on the power tubes (with a capacitor in parallel). The Harvard uses a fixed-biasing system--the power tube cathodes are tied to ground, with a biasing circuit tied to the grids of the power tubes.
Fixed-bias amps sound tighter, more modern. Cathode-bias amps sound older, looser, and "squisher," but these attributes are most perceptible at higher volumes. At lower, cleaner volumes (i.e., the volumes which Van Gelder would permit in his studio) the differences between the Deluxe and Harvard are less apparent.
FWIW, the Harvard and the Vibrolux are the same amp, except for the fact that the Harvard gets its preamp signal via a 6AT6 tube and the Vibrolux uses half of a 12AX7 for the same chore. There isn't really much difference between half of a dual-triode 12AX7 and the single-triode 6AT7. I have regularly played both the Harvard and Vibrolux. If you keep the "vibrato" off on the Vibrolux, it sounds virtually indistinguishable from the Harvard, IMO. We use them interchangeably.
If you want to hear the Harvard/Vibrolux used in jazz, listen to almost _any_ recording by Bucky Pizzarelli. For 50 years he used a 5f10 Fender Vibrolux in the studio. Many _early_ John Pizzarelli cuts employ dad's amp, too. IMO, this amp sounds just brilliant with the archtop guitar--six or seven-string.
For seven-string work, I would lean toward the Harvard because of its slightly lower bass content. The 5e3 Deluxe is a very bassy amp. It is going to drown you in bass if you play seven-string guitar. For six-string archtop, however, you will be delighted with either amp.
The midrange timber of these tweed amps makes them winners in comparison to blackface/silverface Fender amps. I played blackface Deluxe Reverb Amps for many years. (also Pro and Super Reverbs--Twin Reverb, too) IMO, the tweed amp is the way to go when playing jazz. It is just a matter of what you feel like carrying. I have everything from the humble Champ to the Bassman. They are all exceptional amplifiers for archtop play. The often overlooked Pro Amp is worth mentioning. It is right in the sweet spot, in terms of power and sound.
Still, it is irresistible to pick up a Deluxe or Harvard in one hand, your guitar in the other hand, and just go.
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A caveat with the Deluxe, of which I have a clone and love, is that the bigger bass may cause more problems with feedback with archtops. I couldn't use my carvetop with floater with mine above a soft conversational level as a result. I installed the Mission Amps humbucker mods, which allows one to plug into the bright channel and use the normal channel volume as a low-end rolloff. It loses a bit of the Deluxe-ishness of it, but it works.
I generally use my Clarus/RE 12" with the archtop and my Deluxe with my Tele. But with a more feedback resistant guitar like an ES-175or L5CES, this might not be an issue. It worked for Kenny Burrell!
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As always, very informative reply. Thanks, Greentone.
I happened to also find this clip of Chris Whiteman playing a Harvard clone made by Victoria amps. It sounds like quite a versatile amp.
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Greentone, you da' man! If I ever get any scratch, I oughta' cut you a tuition check.
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You are welcome. As Cunamara echoed, the Deluxe is full of bass...and has no way to tame it. The "tone" knob is a treble roll off control. Frankly, the amp would have been more useful had Leo designed it with a bass roll off control. The culprit is that the two capacitors that couple the preamp circuit to the power amp circuit are 0.1 mfd in capacitance. These caps are rated to pass bass frequencies all the way down to sub-audible along to the power amp.
Thus, if your signal contains a strong bass frequency, that is going to be sent along (and how) to the power tubes. So, if you plugged in a bass guitar, synth, or if you pop your hand down hard on the neck pickup, you are going to get a big fuss at the speaker end of things on the Deluxe that you might not notice on an amplifier that has, for example, the 0.02 mfd coupling capacitor of the Harvard Amp.
The Harvard (or, if you like vibrato/tremelo, the Vibrolux) is my favorite tweed amp. I have a slight preference for the Vibrolux because of a fondness for "wiggle." Those two amps, with their Jensen 10" speakers, sound outstanding with archtop guitars. I have been a lazy builder, of late. I have a Harvard clone on my bench that I am building from scratch. Right behind it on the bench is a Vibrolux clone. When they are done, my guitar-playing kids are getting some tweed Deluxe clones sent their way.
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Greentone, can you adopt me?
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Not jazz, but one of my favorite players and tones and the reason I really wanted a tele as a teen back in the 1980s was Steve cropper of booker t and the MGs. Listen to sitting in the dock of the bay and you'll hear a tele through a tweed Harvard. I think green onions was a Harvard too. THAT's a tone!!
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Steve Cropper is my all-time favorite guitarist.
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Shazam! THE amplifier and THE guitar--the '57 Harvard used on all of the Stax/Volt hits (including "Green Onions")--and the '61 Esquire used on "Dock of the Bay" and other hits are now at the Smithsonian.
I will definitely take my grandson to see them when he gets old enough. At two, my grandson boogies to Booker T and the MGs tunes all the time. He gives it a James Brown "Unh!" at regular intervals.
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To my ear the 5e3 has too much bass for hollowbody, but if that is the only amp one has, one can make it work. It is easier, for me, to get a better hollowbody sound from the old Gibson circuits. For example the EH-125. Of course, the EH-125 is not "Tweed," but the covering is aesthetically pleasing on its own.
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Uh, what chord are you fingering? Looks too advanced for this old player, but perfect for your student.
Originally Posted by Greentone
Shazam! THE amplifier and THE guitar--the '57 Harvard used on all of the Stax/Volt hits (including "Green Onions")--and the '61 Esquire used on "Dock of the Bay" and other hits are now at the Smithsonian.
I will definitely take my grandson to see them when he gets old enough. At two, my grandson boogies to Booker T and the MGs tunes all the time. He gives it a James Brown "Unh!" at regular intervals.
And your cute grandson appears to have the perfect guitar playing posture!
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Interesting stuff, I have been wondering same things lately. In the end of the day my 5E3 clone starts always to distort.
But instead of a Harvard I decided to go towards 5E5 direction, to Pros & Supers. But I wanted to make things a bit simpler – this is my first build afterall – so I started to build a 5E3 with 6L6 tubes to get that a bit more clean tweed sound before break up.
About a month ago I got the amp ”finished” and after that I have been changing the coupling and cathode caps to tame the extreme bass.
Now everything sounds promising but I have a problem with the Weber speaker’s magnet touching the power tubes. I need a new baffle... or get rid of that bell of the speaker!
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Total mindf#ck
. I always assumed Greentone just happened to look A LOT like Grant Green! Will have to take everything he says with a grain of salt from now on!
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Are you talking about the actual magnet or the cover? I've seen people put large-magnet webers in their champs and they frequently have to remove the cover. Originally Posted by Herbie
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Sorry about that, Whiskey02. Grant (and Freddie) Green was a big inspiration for me. Greentone _sounds_ a lot like Grant Green on many days.
When you are building a tweed amp, the 5X5 is a great way to go. If you want to experience an amp that is like the 5e3's big brother, try the 5C5. It's an easy build, has the same layout of controls as the Deluxe, and gets a GREAT sound.
My 5C5 is an amp that is not getting gifted to the kids, let me tell you. It really is the "pro" amp alright. (I like the octal preamp tubes, too.)
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Do you have upgraded PT & OT to bias those 6L6s hot enough to warm up? Originally Posted by Herbie
Anyway, no need to reinvent the wheel. My home-built 5E3 has the Robinette 3-way negative-feedback switch. When I'm in a decent-sized room playing duos, NFB off = basic 5E3 circuit. When I'm in rehearsal looking to tighten up, a little NFB please and thank you.
And that calls for a moment with The TightenUp!
Last edited by Sam Sherry; 10-16-2017 at 04:47 PM.
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I've been all the way around the block with the 5x3 circuit. When you start futzing with that circuit, you are ultimately better off building a different amp. The Pro or Super are great places to land. Fender knew it was the end of the line and went with 6x3 amps.
I MO, the 5e3 should be enjoyed as is. I gig regularly with it. I have few problems staying clean. When volume requirements get loud enough, I plug in a second 5e3.
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If someone's seriously in the market, they will be thrilled with this Richter tweed!
[No affiliation with the seller, but I've played Richter's!!]
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Yes, the cover, of course! Thank You very much reminding that it is only a cover! I think that the power tubes fit alright after I take the plastic bell off. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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This is a one of the reasons for my 6L6-5E3 build: I want to have my 5E3 un-modded and for other uses I need a new kind of an amp. Originally Posted by Greentone
But where goes the line of modding and unmodding? I have ended in having V1 preamp tube 12AY7 (as Fender wanted it, but many use 12AX7s) and V2 5751 (Leo wanted it originally 12AX7). Is a different preamp tube modding? It makes the amp totally different animal.
And replacing those "some caps" to get rid of boominess; I think it is more like tuning, not modding. Not to speak about different speakers; 5E3 loves many kinds of speakers and there is not one right answer. So You have to test them all and decide yourself. Tuning, I would say, not modding.
Greentone, I love Your straightforward way to "increase the headroom" of 5E3 ("bring in two ones!") and I have quoted it often. Hats off!
I have to warn You everybody: tinkering Your amps is a bit addictive. I have been thinking the Brownface Deluxe circuit lately... But oh my: it is not tweed!
Back to Harvards!
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I like the 5e3 sound even more with a 15" at low vol.
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That is a cool Rickenbacker style cabinet. Did you build it yourself? Originally Posted by Valdez
I like the 5e3 sound even more with a 15" at low vol.
I believe those old rics had octal preamps, no? I feel like an octal tube amp thread is in order. Something I've been obsessed with lately. I purchased a Valco Oahu, and then I got a V47 and installed a Weber 12a125a. The oahu was great but sounded way too dark. Beautiful sounding on its own, but it couldn't be heard when playing with another instrument, no matter the volume. I ended up selling it. The V47's tone is basically indistinguishable from the oahu with more control of the treble.
I hardly hear anyone talk about the octal fender amps? I have thought about getting an octal princeton (5C2) clone. Would it sound too much like a valco?
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I have an octal 5C5 Pro Amp (although it is a clone that I built). I really like it a LOT.
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