Archtop setup

[joe2758]

Let's talk about archtop setup! Run me through how you set up your (or others') archtop(s). Here's some questions I have off the top of my head:
1. Do you check the radius with a radius gauge? Anyone use the under string ones from stew mac?
2. Do you use a feeler gauge to check the relief? What frets do you check it? Do you capo the first fret? What's a good average number for relief as a starting point?
3. How and where do you measure the action? What's a good starting number?
4. What's your process for setting the floating bridge and intonation?
5. What order do you do things in?

I guess I'm looking for a detailed hand-hold on how to set up my 175. I need to start doing this stuff myself. So, that's what I'm looking for, but feel free to take the conversation wherever you want. I have the stew mac quick action gauge and under string radius gauges already. I am about to order their finest grit fret eraser just for polishing unless someone here stops me.

Thanks

[joe2758]

Hey, I'd also be very grateful if you could just point me toward some informational resources.
thanks

[spiral]

1. Radius gauges? Yes if things are feeling weird. I bought a set on eBay for $20. They are really nice and for the 4 times I've used them they were worth it. Good for wooden bridges and Teles. If you only need it 1 time there are templates online you can print, paste on to cardstock and cut out.
2. Check relief with feeler gauge? No. I fret the first fret with my left hand and whatever fret connects at the body with my right pinky and tap the low E between those two points with my thumb to see how much gap there is. I just eyeball it: just a little bit of relief. Maybe thickness of a business card.
3. Measure action? Check the action at the 12th fret after you get the neck relief right. I eyeball this too but it's under 2mm … about as much as a jazz III Ultex pick.
4. Intonation? I check with a tuner app on my phone. Play the open string and then fret at the 12th. Get them to match as close as you can. I check the E's and the B with a wooden bridge.
5. Process/order: tune up, relief, action, intonation, radius (if action feels off)

There are lots of YouTube videos for every one of the above items but no one place has them collected. Stew Mac probably covers the most ground but a YouTube search is your friend here. Fender / Gretsch probably has the best / quickest video for setting intonation.

[jazzbow]

1. yes if things are feeling weird. I bought a set on ebay for $20. They are really nice and for the 4 times i've used them they were worth it. Good for wooden bridges and teles.
2. no. I fret the first fret with my left hand and whatever fret connects at the body with my right pinky and tap the low e between those two points with my thumb to see how much gap there is. I just eyeball it: Just a little bit of relief. Maybe thickness of a business card.
3. check the action at the 12th fret after you get the neck relief right. I eyeball this too but it's just under 2mm … about as much as a jazz iii ultex pick.
4. intonation i check with a tuner app on my phone. Play the open string and then fret at the 12th. Get them to match as close as you can. I check the e's and the b with a wooden bridge.
5. order: Tune up, relief, action, intonation, radius (if action feels off)

6. Nut Action....

Nut Action

[spiral]

6. Nut Action....

Good call. This is a huge one. This can really make the action feel high if the nut is too tall. This one I use feeler gauges for. Fret the 2nd fret and checking the gap at the 1st fret from low to high I use these gap sizes: .016, .015, .014, .013, .012, .011 (using cheap spark plug gap tool). If you are a really aggressive player, this may be too low as it doesn't give much room for the nut to wear down and you may get string slap on open strings, but that's what I use.

[jazzbow]

How about this one!


Check fingerboard radius.


Check the radius of the strings at the saddle, Top E is cut too high. Seeing as the two E strings are use to measure string action this poorly cut slot would effect any measurements and the B & G could buzz and rattle against the frets which may lead one to question if the frets are level...!


There is a gap underneath the A string. I can slip paper underneath.

This was a factory fresh student level Epi Emp Reg with poor QC.

The more up market instruments should be better fettled, but we all know this to be BS.

[joe2758]

thanks for the replies!

[joe2758]

I guess there's one resource I can share. This guy has a ton of videos of archtops and he seems legit

[jazzbow]

[video=youtube;u_jO-g5asmI]This guy has a ton of videos of archtops and he seems legit

He has some good chops but he is a grouch.

[Matt Cushman]

If the frets are worn a little, I think the first step of the setup is to level, crown and polish the frets. Then a first intonation set up, followed by setting the action at the bridge with a capo placed at the first fret. After the bridge is close, I set the neck for slight relief ( almost flat under full string tension ). Only then do I set the nut action. If the nut is cut too low you may be making a new one, so I tend to tweak the nut slots down last. Scale length will effect the amount of relief you need. If she plays well but buzzes on the first few frets it is probably in need of more relief. For saddle slot depth, half the string should be in the slot and half should be above the saddle for unwound strings. For the wound strings a little under half should be in the slot. The nut slots are about the same and all slots should have a round shape and match the string for close fit. Some like to change the order of the action set up but I say cut the nut last to avoid a too low nut slot. The action at the bridge can be adjusted higher easy, the nut is a one way deal.

[vinnyv1k]

Hey Matt, I don't know if you remember me but you built me a real nice blonde archtop ten years ago. My real name is Vince Kowski. It was a real pleasure doing business with you. We talked quite a bit on the phone when you were building it. Glad to see you are hanging out at this site.

[Matt Cushman]

Hi Vince. Sure I remember you and the guitar. I just found this site a week ago, and joined up right away! I love jazz guitar and have been building some semi hollow guitars lately. It's great to here from you. Matt

[kenbennett]

Let's talk about archtop setup! Run me through how you set up your (or others') archtop(s). Here's some questions I have off the top of my head:

1. Do you check the radius with a radius gauge? Anyone use the under string ones from stew mac?

Unless you have individually height-adjustable saddles you rarely need a radius gauge in a routine setup. Just set the high E at the height you want and the low E at the height you want and the others fall into place. Measure from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string with no capo.

If you need to adjust radius, then the gauges can help. But theoretically, in a typical setup, neither the under-string nor the over-string version is perfect. Since your low E sits higher than your high E, your resulting radius would naturally be slightly larger than the fretboard radius. And that's if your fretboard is cylindrical. The raduis at the saddle on a guitar with conical radius could be radically flatter than the fretboard at any given point.

2. Do you use a feeler gauge to check the relief? What frets do you check it? Do you capo the first fret? What's a good
average number for relief as a starting point?

Sometimes. At one shop I worked the boss had specific numbers. If you want repeatability or you just want to use them until you get a feel for it, then use them.

I put capo on 2nd fret, hold down a fret near the neck-body joint, and measure at a fret half-way between. Check both the high E and low E, and if you're shooting for a specific number, then average those 2 out.

3. How and where do you measure the action? What's a good starting number?

I describe it below. As long as it feels close you don't really need a starting number. The ending number is the one you want to remember if you like it.

4. What's your process for setting the floating bridge and intonation?

Fit the feet if necessary
Locate the bridge between the f-holes
Tune up
Check the intonation
Adjust the intonation (It's a TOM I assume on the 175)
If any of the saddles won't move far enough, move the whole bridge and start all over.
If it's not a TOM or other adjustable saddles, then you have to use your judgement to minimize problems

5. What order do you do things in?

Relief first (unless there are worse problems), intonation last. It may take 2 or 3 iterations through the whole process to get it where you want it.

I guess I'm looking for a detailed hand-hold on how to set up my 175. I need to start doing this stuff myself. So, that's what I'm looking for, but feel free to take the conversation wherever you want. I have the stew mac quick action gauge and under string radius gauges already. I am about to order their finest grit fret eraser just for polishing unless someone here stops me.

Thanks

The main thing to keep in mind when you are coming up your own setup strategy is that the basic adjustments affect each other. String height at the nut, the saddle, and the neck relief are the main adjustments.

With feeler gauges I measure the string height at the nut by checking clearance at the first fret. But I'm usually not messing with the nut unless it's a new nut or the slots were never deep enough in the first place.

I set the saddle height measuring from the top of 12th fret to the underside of string on the high and low E-strings. Typically 1/16" at the high E and 5/64" at the low E. That's a low-medium action that satisfies most people, but for myself it's a minimum.

Neck relief in my shop usually means no relief, except for the few thousandths that remain after erring on the positive-relief side of dead straight. This is a viable strategy considering the modern high level of fret-leveling craftsmanship and the prevalence of 2-way truss rods.

To set the relief for my so-called straight neck, I press a string on the second fret with one hand and press the same string on a fret near where the neck joins the body, then tap with the thumb half way between the fretting fingers. I'm listening and feeling for the slightest clearance, the faintest ping, under the string where I'm tapping. That slight ping is the residual relief that I mentioned.

My basic procedure is to check the relief first, then rough in the saddle heights. A setup usually doesn't involve adjusting the nut slots. They should be gently cleaned and lubricated. However the depth of the nut slots may dictate the usable range of the relief adjustment. If the height of the strings at the nut are just right with 0.012" relief, they will probably be too low (open strings buzzing) if you change to straighter neck. You could compensate by setting the saddle higher, but... That's what I mean about the adjustments affecting each other.

You'll find people do things different ways for different reasons. So one of the advantages of doing your own setups is to set it up it the way you like it. A bonus for when you are also a guitar shopper is that you'll sometimes be able to evaluate a one that isn't set up correctly and see whether and how it might be whipped into shape.

[Engine Swap]

+1 on nut action.

If it's too high, it can really goof things up. I finally invested in a good set of nut files. The key is to go VERY slowly when filing.

[spiral]

All good suggestions. One thing that may be worth doing is taking the guitar in for a really good first setup with a luthier you trust or has good word of mouth. Things like the nut height and bridge radius really only need to be sorted out at the start, and then will be fine for years after. It's not worth buying the specialized tools for 1 setup. Neck relief and intonation don't need specialized tools. If you are starting a collection that is a different story.

Once you take it in to the tech, ask them to walk you through adjusting intonation and neck relief for the future. Those are the things you will mainly deal with as you are playing because of weather and string changes. Offer to pay for their time. Having an expert walk you through it, in front of your eyes, in a systematic way, is worth whatever they charge.

Fretwork is the only thing I won't do. It's really involved, is an art in itself, takes a long time, and takes lots of specialized tools to do it right. For how infrequently it needs to be done, it's worth the $60-$100 to have someone else do it. IMO.

[Hammertone]

He has some good chops but he is a grouch.

He's not a grouch, he's a hoser, eh?

[Longways to Go]

great thread!

I'm totally amateurish about it, but I love to do my own set ups anyway. I won't mess with the nut, but I'm OK with polishing frets -- not leveling them, mind you . . .

The local music scene is folk/bluegrass oriented, so local luthiers tend to emphasize the 1st -5th fret playability. I'm more of a 3rd -12th fret player so I've had to tweak my own guitar after a "professional" set up. I'm also a fan of the basically flat fretboard mentioned above by kenbennett . . .

I do well enough on my own with minor stuff like intonation & truss rod adjustments to keep myself plenty happy. I suppose if I get into too much trouble sometime I can always take it to a shop . . . but I should mention I'm not dealing with historical collectable guitars -- just modern players

[vinnyv1k]

From personal experience take note to anything Matt Cushman has to say. He built me a archtop with one of best playing necks I had ever played. Even my personal luthier Frank Ford of frets.com said it was one of the best fret jobs he had seen next to his own. :-) Glad to have you on board Matt !!!

[jazzbow]

He's not a grouch, he's a hoser, eh?

A grouch? A hoser?

....A Yahoo!

[Para]

A grouch? A hoser?

....A Yahoo!

I love the the guy he always gives me a laugh.

[joe2758]

Wow, thanks everyone! As for the radius gauges, yeah I bought them a couple years ago when I made myself a bone nut for my squire tele. They also helped when I was setting the barrel saddles. But you're right, now that I think about it, they don't seem very important for my 175. It may be interesting to compare the nut to the saddle just to see, since I already have them and all.

My 175 is new, but I'd like to polish the frets. What should I use? There's absolutely no ware in the frets yet.

[Longways to Go]

to polish frets I put masking tape on each side of the fret (one fret at a time) and use fine steel wool. I also tape over the neck pickup & top of the guitar around the neck joint to avoid marring and to keep the steel wool particles from collecting on the pickup due to magnetism. Gives great results.

Disclaimer: This is my dining room table amateur approach, not a pro luthier approach.

[Matt Cushman]

For polishing frets the fret erasures are real handy and they work great on most frets, but they don't work at all on the harder 18% fretwire. Many people use steel wool and swear by it, but not me. It's too messy. The little fibers get everywhere and love to invade the pickup cavity. For polishing the choices of abrasives are many. For a final buffing I use a bit of extra fine rubbing compound. It probably goes without saying, but always mask off your fingerboard first.

[joe2758]

Thanks again Matt! What would be the minimum grits of erasers you'd buy to polish new frets? It doesn't seem like I should need the whole 7 piece set. I have jeweler's rouge for sharpening my tools; could that work with a cotton cloth or something?

[Matt Cushman]

Hi Joe. New frets should polish up easy. So the finest erasures should be all you need, provided the frets have no deep scratches in them. If the frets allow for smooth string bending then they probably don't have any deep scratches in them. Deep scratches on the fret tops are mainly caused by the leveling process. If you don't need to level the frets, the job is way easier. Buffing with compound is a bit messy and I use a dremel with a buffing wheel to speed things up, but I don't recommend this method as the wheel can grab the fret end and possibly mar the side of the neck. I have used polishing compound by hand and it works. I use this method because I use hard fret wire and the erasures don't work. For the brightest, shiniest frets a very fine abrasive is needed. I use 3m perfect-it II but it comes in a giant bottle and is expensive. So if your rouge is fine enough it should work. The erasures are the way to go for a nice and tidy polishing process. Highly polished frets are mostly just for looks.