Gibson Guitar Quality

[fumblefingers]

How about if you guys please take your non topic specific bickering outside to PM and let the rest of us talk about the subject at hand. You're both getting tiresome.

well, that's one point of view. here's another.

i think that you started out as tiresome. why don't you contribute?

your assignment? explain how Six Sigma might be applied to a guitar factory.

[Flyin' Brian]

well, that's one point of view. here's another.

i think that you started out as tiresome. why don't you contribute?

your assignment? explain how Six Sigma might be applied to a guitar factory.

Non sequitur.....BTW I've applied Six Sigma to corporate flight departments, so I understand it. I don't understand the usefulness of testosterone driven an hominem attacks, and I'm not going any further down that road.

All I'm saying is that by all means, you guys should continue to hash out your differences. Just imagine you were at a nice social event and got in a tizzy with each other: Would you perhaps go to a distant corner or another room and come to some conclusion? Or would you stay in the room with all the other guests, your tones getting more strident, your volume getting louder, until you suddenly realized that you were now indeed the only ones in the room, everyone else having left with the firm thought that they'd carefully check the guest list before attending their next party.

[Bluedawg]

do you mean it wasn't laminated? top or back?


which of these 3 types of top are you describing? i assumed #2.

FAQ: Laminated, Solid or Carved Top? J. Hale Music


also, i agree about the 5 grand. it should be an excellent guitar. sad to say it though, maybe not a world class guitar. BTW is/was the $5K MSRP or final sales price? (which should be about 30% less)

The modern Gibson L4CES built since the late 80s has a solid carved spruce top and laminated sides and backs.

My 88 L4CES has laminated mahogany back and sides ... at some point (mid 90s?) they switched to laminated maple back and sides.

I've heard that some of the earlier models like my '88 may have a pressed solid spruce top, but I have no way to confirm that. They have been carved solid spruce for many years now.


I double checked the Gibson web site .... now it's the L4CES Mahogany ..... with solid carved mahogany back and sides

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Elec...-Mahogany.aspx

One thing about Gibson ... they're always changing things

[Bluedawg]

I know recent Gibson quality has been dabated several times before, but today I was really taken by surprise.

I went into the local guitarstore to get some strings. I know most of the salepeople very well and two of them are fine gutarists themselves and always show me if something special is in the store.
Today they had a brand new Gibson L4 and I sat down to play it. Well, this is a really nice guitar that in many ways plays and sounds awsome. But what I don´t get is the finish showed a lot of orangepeel on both top, back and sides and when I played it unplugged it I got a distorted sound when playing certain notes. Something loose somewhere I suppose, not the hardware or knobs which we checked out.. This is not what I would expect from a guitar this expensive.
Is this really an expression of todays Gibson standard?

By the way, I was surprised too by the weight - it's a really heavy guitar

IMHO Gibson's metal tail pieces can add annoying noises at times ... and sometimes it's the metal bridge.

1st ... if you can't hear it while plugged in is it really a problem? .... the L4CES isn't designed to be an acoustic

2nd ... when my Gibsons have buzzed or "distorted" it was more of a set up problem than a QC problem.

reseatting the string ends will sometimes fix the buzz ..

maybe there's a piece lose on the bridge that needs adjusting ...

worse case something has come lose on the tailpiece ... easy to miss in a noisy factory or it could have been been knocked lose during shipping

Ringing and buzzing noises from the metal bits on an archtop are probably why so many small makers use wooden bridges and tailpieces .... and they also sound better to most people

[brad4d8]

I've owned five different Gibsons in the last 37 years. Only one of those was truly a good guitar.

But apparently you keep coming back...
Brad

[Flyin' Brian]

Ringing and buzzing noises from the metal bits on an archtop are probably why so many small makers use wooden bridges and tailpieces .... and they also sound better to most people

I had an Epiphone Howard Roberts with that long/short tailpiece they used to have. There was a strange sort of "echo" on some of the notes. Finally I realized it was some of the strings resonating with the body behind the bridge. I weaved a small piece of foam between the strings behind the bridge and never had the problem again.

Archtops can be pretty finicky.

[Bluedawg]

I had an Epiphone Howard Roberts with that long/short tailpiece they used to have. There was a strange sort of "echo" on some of the notes. Finally I realized it was some of the strings resonating with the body behind the bridge. I weaved a small piece of foam between the strings behind the bridge and never had the problem again.

Archtops can be pretty finicky.

And then there is George Van Eps' string damper ..

www.VintageArchtop.com

[Flyin' Brian]

And then there is George Van Eps' string damper ..

www.VintageArchtop.com

I worked with a guy who wrapped a rubber band around his bridge to dampen the strings too. My problem was behind the bridge. not in the "playing field" and I hated the dead sound he got out of what should have been a beautiful '50s Gibson L-7.

[skiboyny]

I have one of these that I bought from George Van Eps in the 80s at some point if anyone desires one.

And then there is George Van Eps' string damper ..

www.VintageArchtop.com

[boatheelmusic]

Fumblefingers - my 2006 L-4 CES has a carved spruce top and solid mahogany sides and back, and is an excellent guitar.

I currently have the L-4 CES, an Es-175, an Es-137 Custom, a Les Paul Supreme and an SG Standard.

Each was purchased brand new or in pristine used condition for about 50% or so of list price on average, and each is a beautiful, satisfying guitar.

Bought right like this, they were purchased at ebay prices for beat instruments with "buckle rash" or some other BS.

To my mind, then, I am paying nothing for the use of these guitars, since they could easily be sold for what I have in them.

(I am assuming foregone interest on the purchase price is offset by some modest appreciation over time).

I wonder how many of the Gibson "haters" here actually own superior instruments, or how many have bought Sadowskys, Campellones, etc at half of list? Few, methinks.

To stop struggling over the quest for an "official" jazz tone, just get what the masters used in most cases - a Gibson.

I always tell my son that what he really wants is the word that ends the sentence "It's just as good as a ........."

[va3ux]

Well it's been 3 days since the fight subsided. Maybe this will get things going again :

https://groups.google.com/group/rec....7bc2c3e?hl=en#

[PTChristopher]

Can't we instead leave behind the Harmony Central and Gear Page style unfortunate vibe threads?

Surely this small group does better without that sort of stuff?

????

Chris

[fumblefingers]

Just got off the phone with one of the main sales folks at Wolfe
Guitars.
(im thinking about a custom 555 but I digress)


He claims that Gibson is now having all of its archtop bodies (175,
L5, Super 4, LEGRAND..ETC!) made in China at the Samick plant. He is
stating this as a fact.
REPEAT: All Gibson archtop bodies are now being made in China by
Samick and then shipped to Gibson where they add the American hardware
and call it 'Made in USA".
He also states that because of the Feds raiding Gibson that their
fingerboards are no longer made of Ebony or Rosewood, but are instead
some type of plastic or fake wood and so are the inlays.


the text above is from a post at the link above. anybody here know if this is true? their archtop bodies made at Samick plant in China?!?!? goodness, I hope not. (the Gibson web site implies otherwise, at least about the fretboards.)

thanks.

[bluefonia]

Can't we instead leave behind the Harmony Central and Gear Page style unfortunate vibe threads?

Surely this small group does better without that sort of stuff?

????

Chris

Agree

[Wildcat]

They seem to hold their value better than anything else. I keep thinking this will change but all of the poor work they did in the 70's didn't seem to derail them nor did the junk they produced in Montana. Consistent quality certainly can be done. Look at Martin and Taylor. Somehow this kind of manufacturing prowess escapes Gibson

I passed a beautiful brand new handcarved Eastman 16" 335 style guitar at my local guitar, at half the price of a new Gibson 335, because of the resale value for a Gibson and the lack of resale value for the Eastman.

Granted I am at the point that GAS is no longer an issue and I know what I want. Basically one guitar, one amp. But, if I ever decided to part ways, I'm tired of taking a beating for resale value on guitar that are just as good if not better than Gibsons.

[Wildcat]

If the most ringing defense of Gibson you can keep repeating is, well, other companies sometimes ship crap, and well, other CEOs are also jerks, and well, Gibson hasn't gone broke yet, this is faint praise indeed.

What bothers me is that my perception is that Gibson, without a whole lot of extra cost, COULD be a responsive company shipping consistent consistently outstanding products to a happy dealer network. They are none of these.

What also bothers me is Gibson's tendency to buy other product lines, run them into the ground while the names still have some customer goodwill, and then drop them. Tobias basses, Baldwin pianos, Steinberg and Kramer guitars, etc. There are still people alive (like me) who remember when Epiphone competed with Gibson and produced excellent guitars. Today, Epiphone quality is a crapshoot.

With GOOD management (instead of "it could probably be worse" management), Gibson could do much better, for themselves and for all of us. Honda and Toyota didn't get where they are by saying well, GM makes junk too.

This all sounds too familar.

Coming out of college in 1980 I bought a new Ford Pinto. Well I wrecked the thing in a year or two and bought a brand new Subura with 4wd.

The quality, reliablity, features and style in the American cars had declined with the American car industry's domination over the car markert. The Asian cars were just a better buy or more bang for the buck.

I have not bought an American car since then.

[Drifter]

...because of the resale value for a Gibson and the lack of resale value for the Eastman.

I keep wondering if that stays that way over the next decades.

[Drifter]

Just got off the phone with one of the main sales folks at Wolfe
Guitars.
(im thinking about a custom 555 but I digress)


He claims that Gibson is now having all of its archtop bodies (175,
L5, Super 4, LEGRAND..ETC!) made in China at the Samick plant. He is
stating this as a fact.
REPEAT: All Gibson archtop bodies are now being made in China by
Samick and then shipped to Gibson where they add the American hardware
and call it 'Made in USA".
He also states that because of the Feds raiding Gibson that their
fingerboards are no longer made of Ebony or Rosewood, but are instead
some type of plastic or fake wood and so are the inlays.


the text above is from a post at the link above. anybody here know if this is true? their archtop bodies made at Samick plant in China?!?!? goodness, I hope not. (the Gibson web site implies otherwise, at least about the fretboards.)

thanks.

Too absurd a thought to be discussed here...?

[Bluedawg]

Just got off the phone with one of the main sales folks at Wolfe
Guitars.
(im thinking about a custom 555 but I digress)


He claims that Gibson is now having all of its archtop bodies (175,
L5, Super 4, LEGRAND..ETC!) made in China at the Samick plant. He is
stating this as a fact.
REPEAT: All Gibson archtop bodies are now being made in China by
Samick and then shipped to Gibson where they add the American hardware
and call it 'Made in USA".
He also states that because of the Feds raiding Gibson that their
fingerboards are no longer made of Ebony or Rosewood, but are instead
some type of plastic or fake wood and so are the inlays.


the text above is from a post at the link above. anybody here know if this is true? their archtop bodies made at Samick plant in China?!?!? goodness, I hope not. (the Gibson web site implies otherwise, at least about the fretboards.)

thanks.

Where's the face palm icon when you need one .....

Then again ... it's on the internet ... it must be true

[SamBooka]

I cannot confirm or deny the China Samick plant rumor
But I saw the exact same post on the gear page this week
Same format "I was talking to my dealer this week on the phone"

Doesn't really bother me cause I'm not planning on buying another new Gibson this lifetime

[Jabberwocky]

Let me see, it's April 8th; we're way past April Fool's Day to be making April Fool's Day jokes, ja? Ja?

[aniss1001]

Hehe you gotta love the way myths and rumours propagate on the web

On the other hand a coorporation that breaks all rules of decent behaviour in order to maximize profits is hardly uncommon. So who knows.

Furthermore it DOES seem, by the way Gibson has been slacking it with the QC, that the current leadership hasn't understood that their most valuable asset by far is their NAME. Without that Gibson is just yet another manufacturer of wood chunks with metal bits on them.

[Kuz]

I can"t speak about the "archtops out sourced to China", but those of you saying that it is internet folklore about the fretboards might want to do some research before buying.

Gibson's rosewood fretboards are now laminate rosewood or richlite composite. ( I am not sure if this is the case for Gibson's Custom Shop guitars, but IS the case for their production guitars).

Not bashing, just stating what is.

[Wildcat]

Too absurd a thought to be discussed here...?

I bought several Heritage guitars from Jay Wolfe in Jupiter Florida, including a H-555, with whom this quote is attributed to. If it is truly a quote from Jay or Graham, his partner, and not misunderstood, you can take that quote to the bank as Jay is a strait shooter. Good guy. Email him at Wolfe Guitar and see if its true.

[Wildcat]

I keep wondering if that stays that way over the next decades.

I don't think so and that's why in a previous posting I make the comparision to the fall of the American car industry to the Asians during the early 1980's.