Natural Acoustic Archtop Sound - How to Amplify in 2012?

[Jabberwocky]

Another expensive solution: the AMT S15G. I'm of no help but I'm just throwing it out there.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by fep

Re: a piezo... have you heard one through a Fishman Aura pedal. If I understand it correctly, it's an eq on steroids in that it has something like a thousand bands of eq. They've got settings to convert the piezo sound back to a natural acoustic sound.

It's really pretty amazing how it sounds like a natural acoustic guitar. I've heard it on a dreadnought and a classical but not on an archtop.

Edit, I found this Fishman Aura, here's an excerpt:

The Aura system is remarkable. Unfortunately, they have not created any images for an archtop yet...

I'm gonna pick up a pick up the world pup sometime soon...I'll report back...now it's just a decision of what guitar to put it on...maybe I'll start a poll....

[Paul Hughes]

Jabberwocky,

I think it's still interesting even though I can't afford it. I'm sure there are loads of folk who will think it's worth the money and to will read this thread.

I'm still reallyl impressed by the K&K audio files I heard. sounds like a guitar to me and pretty easy to fit - also reasonable. I'm sure it must have less feedback issues than a condenser mic.

BTW - I did a test with the Audio Technica 350 clipped onto the tail piece. Put it through my PA clean. I wasn't happy at all and feedback was definitely an issue. I could use it in quiet venues but nowhere else.

Anyone know if a mini clip dynamic mic would work in theory? Given that an SM 57 doesn't sound that bad live?

[Jabberwocky]

Back in 2010, someone in this forum suggested a Sony lavalier mic in a pinch. Paul, perhaps you could try rigging one up to see if it works?

[pingu]

Its all about where the mic is ..........

Acoustic Guitar: DPA 4099 Guitar Microphone Review

Inside you get lots of separation (the mic only/mainly hears the guitar)
but of course you are inside a box so its not a natural sound

A Piezo sounds like a piezo (bright and string-ey)

A contact stick-on mike is picking-up the movement of the wood
which is a different thing to the sound in the air that we are
used to hearing

So a mic placed in the normal position like the DPA above will
give the natural guitar sound , but the trade-off is that it will also
pick up a bit of drums , horns bass etc.

[pingu]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Another expensive solution: the AMT S15G. I'm of no help but I'm just throwing it out there.

Just checked their site out ant these look to be the dogs cahoonas

the same capsule mounted just inside a Flat-top
but note , near to the outside world as possible
(the S3G)
Applied Microphone Technology - microphones for trumpet, trombone, saxophone, clarinet, guitar, violin, harmonica, percussion, cello and more.

sounds friggin awsome on the Metheny track there
(this is a studio album track so it could be other mics helping out .... dunno)

[pingu]

Originally Posted by Paul Hughes

Jabberwocky,

I think it's still interesting even though I can't afford it. I'm sure there are loads of folk who will think it's worth the money and to will read this thread.

I'm still reallyl impressed by the K&K audio files I heard. sounds like a guitar to me and pretty easy to fit - also reasonable. I'm sure it must have less feedback issues than a condenser mic.

BTW - I did a test with the Audio Technica 350 clipped onto the tail piece. Put it through my PA clean. I wasn't happy at all and feedback was definitely an issue. I could use it in quiet venues but nowhere else.

Anyone know if a mini clip dynamic mic would work in theory? Given that an SM 57 doesn't sound that bad live?

Its where you've put the AT mic thats the problem ........
It would be well worth trying a mini gooseneck type mounting
like the DPA and the AMT S15G

Or make a Mock-up with coathanger wire to see if it gives good results
before you buy a proper goose-neck mount
I bet it will sound great with the AT mic too
It is where the mic is thats important
Trust me , I'm a Sound Engineer ...............

[Jazz_175]

This is the type of (almost) acoustic sound that I like from an archtop
Frank Vignola - YouTube.

I think it is a combination of the floating pickup (I'm pretty sure it is a Benedetto pickup) and the microphones in front of the guitar.

[Paul Hughes]

Pingu,

The At 350 has a mini goose neck - I think it's as standard. I micd it according to ear and some pix I saw on acousticguitar forum of a similar setup. I used to clip the same to a six string banjo and could get a great sound with very few feedback issues but then again - banjos with good rings are LOUD! For some reason the archtop though loud is just not as loud.

I remember using a professional Sony lavalier mic I borrowed from work for the weekend. I clipped it just inside the soundhole of a Yamaki flat top to make some rough recordings. I remember it still sounded amazing ..... but this was 15 years ago and the mic was very good.

Jazz 175 - I think the Frank Vignola clip is a mix of pickup, LDC on the top and pencil condenser on the neck. Still, a great listen. Really enjoyed it.

Going back to the original point, I'd love to be able to sit down with my acoustic archtop, plug it in without fear of bleed or feedback and play with no loose wires - but that's probably not going to happen so I need to work on the next closest thing.

[Snap]

Originally Posted by fep

Re: a piezo... have you heard one through a Fishman Aura pedal. If I understand it correctly, it's an eq on steroids in that it has something like a thousand bands of eq. They've got settings to convert the piezo sound back to a natural acoustic sound.

It's really pretty amazing how it sounds like a natural acoustic guitar. I've heard it on a dreadnought and a classical but not on an archtop.

Edit, I found this Fishman Aura, here's an excerpt:

That's it. Massive equalization and filtering to turn an inherent bad sounding element into something different. I cannot understand a fully processed as natural. I prefer to start with a better sounding source and a minimum processing if needed. The AST intended A1.2N preamps only do a -6 dB notch in the low mids while the A1.2 is flat. So you can do the notch to taste and needs with a good external Eq. Exactly what I do with the Schaller Oysters. My next preamps will be A1.2 instead. I prefer them flat and dealing with the low mids myself better than having a fixed filter. I get better results this way. No guitar sounds equal or needs exactly the very same notch.

[Snap]

Originally Posted by Paul Hughes

I like the idea of an AST but can't see how you would fit it inside an archtop.

http://www.acousticon.com/B-Band_AST_medium.jpg

Is the "pick up the world" an AST? I'm confused now.

Still tempted by the K&K for ease of fitting.

Will try the AT 350 as well for a while and see what happens.

What's clear is that there's clearly a market for a natural sounding, easy to fit archtop pick up.

This should give you an idea. Most of my archtops are parallel braced, so I install ASTs by a tonebar. When the tonebars run right by the F-hole end there is no room for the pickup and it's certainly trickier. You need to install it in-between the tonebars which is harder to reach, but can be done. A good viol maker or repairman will do it. they install sound posts.

About K&K, the recommended installing positions by the F-holes notches are only recommended for ease of it. If you check the tone on different spots of the top you will easily find that a way better response can be obtained shifting the two elements closer to the bridge and by center line. Just try by yourself. I spent a whole lot of time experimenting with this in the past. I installed mine a tad south from the bridge but very close to it. In fact I get better result with one element in the centerline and right by the bridge and the other element by a tonebar. The two elements close together in the center may result an a bit too muddy sound in some guitars. Shifting one element to a stiffer area, like close to a tonebar gives some more definition and clarity. Always check the sweet spots for every guitar. Don't go blindly to the factory recommended spots. In my experience this sounds thinner, harsher and tougher. They want you to buy their pickups and simply offer you an easy DIY install option, but not the best IMO.

[Jazz_175]

Strange...
I keep receiveing emails pointing to new posts by Snap but they do not appear in the thread

[Snap]

Yes, they don't go through...

[mr. beaumont]

Hmmm...snap, I'm finding six posts of yours that appear...did you post more? If the problem continues, please send me a pm.

[Snap]

Thanks, though it seems to work now.

[kamlapati]

Snap, great info on install and positions.

All the talk has made me wonder whether I misjudged my current K&K install, so I did some experiments and listening.

I recorded some tracks with PU direct and a large diaphragm condenser in front of the guitar. The PU tracks sounded a little thin next to the mic, but +3db at 125Hz improved it significantly. I didn't hear any of the odd resonances I mentioned above.

Next I went back to my mini PA, a Yamaha StagePas 500. The odd resonant tones are strong, making me think that even at very low volumes there are frequencies on the edge of feedback. Unfortunately boosting at 125 Hz to help the tone is in the worst range to induce feedback.

So overall: the output of the PU is pretty accurate, but the onset of feedback is even lower than I originally thought.

Snap, do you think the PU position effects feedback?

[Snap]

Amplifying a resonant instrument is always a tricky thing. We have to learn to live in the verge of collapse.

In my experience feedback resistance (or feedback tendencies) strongly depends on particular guitars. They are unpredictable. A loud highly resonant guitar sometimes results having a high resistance to feedback, while another way weaker and lacking low end tend to feedback like crazy with similar setups. It's a kind of hit or miss. Though in general terms, loud resonant guitars use to be more prone to feedback... but as I said, that's not a fixed rule at all.

As always, dampening the guitar a bit when plugged uses to help a lot. Closing the F-holes with foam, rubber or whatever. Putting some cloth or similar stuff inside the guitar. Or a very good but often ignored trick. Press the back of the guitar a bit against your belly or your body depending the way you hold your guitar. Dampening the back plate noticeably reduces the low end in most archtop guitars. What is a clear no-no when playing unplugged uses to be a big help when amplified. You'll hardly ever miss that low end. Usually there's still plenty of it.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Snap

Press the back of the guitar a bit against your belly or your body depending the way you hold your guitar.

Luckily we are not rock and roll guitarists. Then we would have to hold the guitar back against the right knee which might be awkward.

[Snap]

So all those not holding their guitars in the classical guitar position or playing standing are rock & roll players? Funny.

Are you a slim guy? Maybe I eat a bit too much, but I can dampen the back of my archtops at will with my belly and chest while holding my archtops in the classical position.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Snap

So all those not holding their guitars in the classical guitar position or playing standing are rock & roll players? Funny.

I must learn not to try to be funny in other than my native language. I just had a visual fantasy about those rock guitarists with their guitars dangling between their legs. If they should dampen the back of an archtop hanging there, it would have to be with the knee or the thigh. Even when standig with the guitar on a strap, I don't have the guitar hanging down there.

Are you a slim guy? Maybe I eat a bit too much, but I can dampen the back of my archtops at will with my belly and chest while holding my archtops in the classical position.

No I'm fat. And I observe the same as you. By coincidence, I wrote a post in another thread a few hours ago about this:

So do I. When playing acoustic rhythm, I even hold the guitar much like Freddie Green, which also makes the strumming easier and makes my right arm position less cramped. Unfortunately I am so fat that I can't totally keep my belly from touching the back in any position.

I do in fact find that dampening the back "steals" more from the sound than dampening a peripheral part of the top.

[Jazz_175]

Just some more playing for those interested.
Andreas Oberg and Frank Vignola together.
Andreas Oberg plays with a little microphone in front of the guitar.
mmmm.........
Gypsy Jazz Duets - Gypsy Bossa Performance - Frank Vignola & Andreas Oberg - YouTube

[Gilpy]

I also tried the K&K archtop pickups on a 17' carved top guitar. I could not get them to sound good without a lot of EQ, and they were very prone to feedback. I did experiment with the placement.
They did add a nice acoustic touch when mixed in with the floating magnetic pickup on the guitar, but for me, the whole project was not worth the effort.

[kamlapati]

I just did a temporary install of a Pick Up the World #25 Powerstrip. As you guys know, it is the easiest install and least invasive of any archtop PU. On my Trenier Magnolia I was able to do A/B comparisons with my recent K&K install.

I definitely like it better than the K&K. It gives up some treble to the K&K, but reproduces the mids and bass beautifully, with none of the high harmonic artifacts I'm getting on my K&K install. I'm probably going to replace the K&K with a permanent install of the PUTW.

I still have some other guitars I want to experiment with. So you might see future tests of the B-Band AST or Dazzo.

[redwater]

Did anybody try the Sachattendesign Archtop pickup? Schatten Archtop Guitar Pickup
I installed one into my Guitar and the Sound is so natural. It is nearly as good as with a Microphone...
It is the best and natural sounding Pickup I ever tried.

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by redwater

Did anybody try the Sachattendesign Archtop pickup? Schatten Archtop Guitar Pickup
I installed one into my Guitar and the Sound is so natural. It is nearly as good as with a Microphone...
It is the best and natural sounding Pickup I ever tried.

So did you have to completely replace the original bridge?

[redwater]

Originally Posted by Jazz_175

So did you have to completely replace the original bridge?

Yes, you have to replace it. But believe me, you won`t regret!
The sound you hear after installing the Schattendesign Pickup is the sound of your Instrument, just louder.
Subject to the condition you have got a good Amp.

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by redwater

Yes, you have to replace it. But believe me, you won`t regret!
The sound you hear after installing the Schattendesign Pickup is the sound of your Instrument, just louder.
Subject to the condition you have got a good Amp.

But, if you already have a pickup, can you mix the two signals?

[redwater]

Originally Posted by Jazz_175

But, if you already have a pickup, can you mix the two signals?

Yes, of course you can. But you should manage the wire for two Jackpins.

[fauves]

I have a K&K in a g400jv 17" archtop and have had them in a few others. I play in a rockabilly/ western swing outfit at moderate volumes. The pickup didn't do much until I put it with the right amp. A fishman loud box with the built in boost was the magic combo. Only so/ so with other acoustic amps and didn't like it at all with a twin or other electric guitar amps. Wait...it does sound good with a polytone with a 15"

I have heard good things about the shadow nanomag. The thing for me is it needs to not just work and sound good it needs to be easy. Preamps, mic's that's a lot of set up and work.

[kamlapati]

Hey all,

I just did a quick recording with a good mic and my recently installed McIntyre Acoustic Feather. You can download the .WAV files and do A/B comparisons.

The Acoustic Feather is bright, but with some EQ it sounds OK and captures a lot of the acoustic spirit of the guitar. It's a useful tool in the kit.

PU Comparison

I have some similar clips of a Pick Up the World too, and I'll post them soon.