Laminate top archtops. Do you have one?

[=DK=]

Sadowsky | Jim Hall FAQ

Look at "Why is the guitar made of laminated wood instead of solid wood?".

"a) Jim Hall’s D’Aquisto is made of laminated maple.

b) Jim’s previous guitar was an ES-175 which is also a maple laminate guitar.

c) Jim and I (and many other players) believe that a laminated top sounds superior to a solid wood top when played through an amplifier, with less feedback as well. Of the original prototypes, one was built with a 5-ply maple top, and the other with a spruce top. The 5-ply maple was the clear winner when played through an amp.

I have been successful in designing a top and back that is considerably thinner than any other laminates available. The result is greater acoustic resonance without any sacrifice in feedback resistance."

Yup, the Sadowsky archtops, the most Gibson archtops and the D'Aquisto Jazz line are all laminate tops.

My theory is this: perhaps we've been going about this the wrong way. Classical guitars do sound better with solid tops, because classical musicians call for that sound. Solid tops are more expensive and harder to mass produce, though. So, from our history, we've come to the conclusion that a more expensive guitar is a better guitar.

Just because something is mass produced doesn't mean it can't be made your own.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by =DK=

Solid tops are more expensive and harder to mass produce, though. So, from our history, we've come to the conclusion that a more expensive guitar is a better guitar.

A laminate top Sadowsky is more expensive than a solid spruce top archtop from Eastman. There goes that theory.

I enjoy the sound of both laminate and solid top archtops. I've also played some pricey archtops that sounded amazing. I can't afford one at this point in time but I'm definitely no hater based on price tag!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

While sometimes price has psychological effect (people think a wine tastes better when they are told it's more expensive), I think jazz guitarists simply get that carved and laminated tops sound differently from each other, although there are lots of variables: thickness, size, bracing, how pickups are mounted, etc...

[Billnc]

There are so many variables I just go with what I like. One floating pick up at the neck seems to be the common denominator.

[cjm]

One way of looking at it is that the solid wood carved archtop as we know it today, was not really designed to sound good. It was designed to be loud as an unamplified rhythm instrument played in bands dominated by horns.

As to it needing to sound good, let's not forget that it replaced the banjo. It didn't need to sound good to sound better than the banjo it replaced. It just needed to be loud enough for the brass section to hear, and to be less objectionable than a banjo.

The first electric archtops weren't much different than the acoustic archtops they were derived from and a huge number of them were simply acoustic archtops with a variety of pickups added after the fact and after market...Acoustic guitars designed to be loud and somewhat haphazardly repurposed as electric guitars.

Plywood guitars were sort of the first "clean sheet" archtop electric designs. Acoustic volume was never a design consideration. Acoustic tone was no particular concern either.

So perhaps it should come as no surprize that the post WWII plywood guitars sounded better than carved wood to many ears when played as they were intended -- as electrics...and that builders like Sadowsky prefer plywood, and that even the iconic archtop builder Bob Benedetto recommends plywood as offering the best performance in an electric.

[marcwhy]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

A laminate top Sadowsky is more expensive than a solid spruce top archtop from Eastman. There goes that theory.

Yep, and both made overseas by others!

I always ask my students to consider what (potential) performing venue they're working towards: a small, quiet space for solo or duo playing, or a larger space with a combo/big band, etc., as well as the "sound" they prefer. If it's quiet stuff (and they can afford it), then sure, go for a solid top. If it's amplified, and potential loud, go for a laminate.

[bigdaddyguitar]

Never gave it much thought . Had a 175 for years , loved the sound . Playing a Epiphone Broadway , and an Emperor Regent now , through a Fender amp. , Love it . Great sound . Laminate is fine by me .

[rpguitar]

Solid, thinly carved wood resonates more efficiently and with more complexity of overtones than laminated wood. That's just a fact. It's been made into a whole "value" subject by obsessive guitarists who feel like their instrument is better than the other guy's, or perhaps defensive with concern that their instrument is inferior.

This thin, carved wood with all of its lovely resonance is not necessarily a practical advantage when amplified using magnetic pickups in the standard way of electric guitar playing. In fact, it's been found to be problematic. It feeds back; it is not pleasant to cut up in order to insert large hunks of metal (pickups).

So laminated wood has a practical and useful place in the spectrum as a perhaps ideal medium for mounting magnetic pickups on a guitar with some acoustic properties. They sound great in that capacity.

Solid wood is superior for an acoustic instrument. Laminated wood can equal or surpass it for an electric instrument. Vanilla vs. chocolate. Both delicious.

[=DK=]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Vanilla vs. chocolate. Both delicious.

That's a good way to think about it.

I suppose I just like laminate tops for jazz.

I started with jazz on an Ibanez AG, a bubinga laminate. I went to classical study as I got more serious about music, and I acquired a Cordoba with a solid spruce top, solid rosewood back and sides, and, as you pointed out, the acoustic sound was harmonically rich, compared to the jazzbox. But as I continued to play and really enjoy Jazz, I was drawn more and more to the "matter of fact" sound the laminate archtop gave me. Though I do most of my solo work on my archtop, I'll whip out the nylon for especially expressive pieces.

[rpguitar]

As you can see from my signature, I own an old ES-175, and its electric tone and response is just to die for. Then I also have three non-cutaway acoustic Gibsons with no pickups. Their acoustic tones are all different, and all really expressive to me.

One point I'd like to make is that the majority of the jazz guitar repertoire known to most players is of the electric variety. Even Charlie Christian's playing with Benny Goodman around 1940 was electric! There is just far less original acoustic repertoire available for the jazz guitarist to study and be inspired by. It's out there, but it's old and the sound quality is a little primitive. So that's why for so many, "the jazz tone" is a smooth, warm, electric one. And laminate archtops with built-in pickups excel at achieving that.

[=DK=]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

So that's why for so many, "the jazz tone" is a smooth, warm, electric one. And laminate archtops with built-in pickups excel at achieving that.

That's my argument in a nutshell, Roger.

[customxke]

I have laminated tops, and carved tops. They make guitar noises.

[AlohaJoe]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Solid wood is superior for an acoustic instrument. Laminated wood can equal or surpass it for an electric instrument. Vanilla vs. chocolate. Both delicious.

Absolutely! And vanilla and chocolate can be very nice together too. In modest volume settings an old carved archtop w a DeArmond can deliver a little of both, especially sweet when you can comp mostly acoustically and then bring it up a little for solos.

[mangotango]

Originally Posted by customxke

I have laminated tops, and carved tops. They make guitar noises.

Nail. Head. Hit.

If you like it, it's good. End of.

[jorgemg1984]

Have a 1965 Guild X-500 that I love! (laminated). But I prefer electric tones to acoustic tones on an archtop...

[cjm]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

...I prefer electric tones to acoustic tones on an archtop...

Yes! You and I may not agree about the best electric tones...but 100% agreement with the basic idea.

If ANY musical instrument ever required the union of traditional craftsmanship and 20th century electronics technology to meet its potential, it is the archtop guitar.

[fws6]

I have a 59 guild X500 whit a lam spruce top and it sounds fantastic through my vibroverb. But I mainly play acoustic though or with very little amplification and greatly prefer carved tops. I also have an L5CES with PAFs in it but hardly ever use it. Great guitar but it all depends on what you do.

[derek]

I have played numerous solid wood archtops over the years, and have owned several. I like the sound of my 175 better. Just like shoes, you gotta find what fits.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by cjm

Yes! You and I may not agree about the best electric tones...but 100% agreement with the basic idea.

If ANY musical instrument ever required the union of traditional craftsmanship and 20th century electronics technology to meet its potential, it is the archtop guitar.

Ha Ha finally we agree on something! I truly see the archtop as you said: a great piece of wood with all the best electronic components (that's why I upgraded my Guild so much).

When I see someone with piezo pickups and mics in front of a solid wood archtop I always think: why not getting a folk guitar instead? (I guess when they see my laminate with built-in in humbuckers they think: why not a solid body?)

[=DK=]

Btw, this thread is not meant to express a competition of solid vs. laminate. As previously stated, both make guitar noises. I'm trying to reaffirm that solid is not greater than, lesser than, or equal to laminate; the two sounds are just different

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

When I see someone with piezo pickups and mics in front of a solid wood archtop I always think: why not getting a folk guitar instead? (I guess when they see my laminate with built-in in humbuckers they think: why not a solid body?)

Which segues into my next question brilliantly: how do piezos stack up on laminates and solid tops? Is there a big difference?

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by =DK=

how do piezos stack up on laminates and solid tops? Is there a big difference?

That one's easy. Piezos suck equally badly on both.

BTW, solid and laminate tops are only "just different" when it comes to electric tones. Solid is inarguably superior for acoustic. Some of us actually do play acoustic archtops acoustically!

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

That one's easy. Piezos suck equally badly on both.

+1

[twilightblue100]

Is the Gibson ES-359 Triple Maple popular considered Laminate. How is it for playing Jazz?

[rpguitar]

The ES-359 and all of Gibson's semi-hollow guitars use maple laminate construction. And most of them, including the 359 (which I used to own), are great for jazz.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

That one's easy. Piezos suck equally badly on both.....

..... Some of us actually do play acoustic archtops acoustically!

Agree. To my ears, piezos sounds like a monkey farting in a tin can. I prefer to have my acoustic guitars miked instead. It's possible as I play sitting down, though it wouldn't work for a rock musician running all over the stage doing gymnastics.

[GreyJazz90]

I love my Jim Hall Sadowsky Laminate. It rarely ever has feedback issues, and has a really woody tone(Jesse Van Ruller, Benson etc.)

[cjm]

Originally Posted by oldane

like a monkey farting in a tin can

Do you happen to know where I can put my hands on a lead sheet with the changes for that tune? I've been looking all over for one, and maybe there is some sort of copyright issue, but I can't locate a publisher -- not even for piano sheet music.

Lyrics would be nice, but the singer said if we'd rip a few bars, she would fake it.

[hot ford coupe]

I used to have an ES 175, an ES 150 and a Heritage H575.. They were all great players. Why did I sell them? I just had way too many guitars around that I wasn't playing. The 175 was one of the best instruments I've ever owned. I also dumped a bunch of carved tops too so I'm not prejudiced against the lam tops.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by cjm

Do you happen to know where I can put my hands on a lead sheet with the changes for that tune?

It was quoted in the book "Music - a Monkey Business".

[kris]

Laminate or not....I like good sounding guitars.
Live gigs tell the true.