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Originally Posted by ragman1
To me that's a somewhat interesting, but not entirely useful approach. It's more helpful to me to think "major" on major chords and "dominant" on dominant chords. Perhaps I'm not fully grokking the insightfulness of Pat's approach. Pat sounds great when he does it. When I do it, it just sounds like a big blob of minor. This is another reason I use chord tones as my guidepost rather than scales. I know the scales, but it makes more sense to me to orient myself around the chord, and think about how various notes are relating to chord tones.
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11-19-2017 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by destinytot
Why isnt this stapled to the first page of the forum?!
been a really great thread. I think I am in a similar position to the OP
Also Christians advice 'it wont sound like jazz but...' I think its really important too.
As a beginner I think a lot of the time we try many exercises but only continue with the ones that sound most like jazz to us, which often isnt the most beneficial route.
In fact, (and I'm looking at you modes) perhaps it cheats us out of the real meat of what we should be practicing
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Yes.
A really good jazz musician will be able to make 1 3 5 triads thing sound like jazz, because they understand the rhythmic language and phrasing.
Trying to look for jazz in 'hip note choices' is a common shortcut that is actually ends up taking you the long way around.
(After all, plenty of interesting note choices in Ravel, but it ain't jazz.)
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Originally Posted by p1p
OK, but seriously:
To your question about whether people think about scales while actually playing in a group/bandstand context, I think you'll mostly hear people say that they don't. I certainly don't. I think scales are part of practice and a tool for exploring sounds that eventually work their way into my playing with other people, though, I might occasionally play a scale for some sort of effect. Practicing scales (and arps, and chord subs) gives you a library of sounds that you can play without having to think. So practice lots of things, and then just play.
When I do think about harmony while playing, I think about:
- 7ths, 3rds of the chord of the moment
- Where the altered 5ths and 9ths are for the chord of the moment.
- Is there a modulation and/or full measure of a tonic chord coming up?
But mostly I don't think about any of this stuff. The actual pitches I play just kind of happen. I _do_ think about one or another of:
- Phrasing
- Rhythm
- Dynamics
- Varying the density of what I'm playing
- Varying between single lines and harmonized lines
- Repeating and transposing short phrases
- Having a beginning, middle, and end of a solo
- Is this a good time to deploy one of my stock "outside" moves?
Overall, I think it's important to remember that pitches is only one of the several sets of things that make up a solo. Most of the material written about improvisation emphasizes rules for picking the right pitches, but to a large extent that's because that's the only domain of improvisation that lends itself particularly well to being written about. It's easy to write about why you can play the melodic minor scale a half step up from the dominant. It's very hard to write about how to develop bag of nuances of articulation, phrasing, and dynamics, and developing an individual voice as a soloist.
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
Often, when I analyze a line I think is really great, it often turns out that the chord/scale relationship is nothing unusual -- and what makes the line great is the melodic and rhythmic content.
On the subject of minors -- is it really that difficult to pick the 6th and 7th you want by ear? I know that some great players did it with multiple Greek names for things, but it's just the 6 and 7.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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My goal has been playing by ear all the time. For about 4 years and counting. Almost there... but it has been "almost there" for so damn long. All I know its possible. I mean.. I know it is. I just know. Take a crazy pill and try yourself! Loop the -1 and forget everything. Maybe it works for you?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Got a lot out of your video a few months back on this stuff. Simple roots, then root+3rd etc.
Vitamins for brain/fingers. Solid.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
When does an 7-1 appogiatura on a major chord become a major seventh? Let's ask Mahler....*
*Actually Barenboim's pretty restrained here.... Some conductors love to milk that chord.....
Got a lot out of your video a few months back on this stuff. Simple roots, then root+3rd etc.
Vitamins for brain/fingers. Solid.
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I have to say, I've been having some "mega" breakthroughs lately with this, so thanks again everyone for your input.
Basically over the course of a few days, i.e. the duration of this thread, I'm now able to create some really interesting lines - MUSIC - over some changes on the looper pedal. Really enjoying it. I'm not really thinking about scales at all, though they'll pop up occasionally (probably from drilling them into my head before). I'm basically playing off triads in the key, and thinking about inversions and the altered dominant chords, targeting those notes with the changes.
I'm not sure if this is 'correct', but it does sound good to me so far. It also doesn't feel separate to when I'm playing chord-melody now, I'm basically seeing the same shapes/sounds in general. This was the big breakthrough I had tonight - it's all just starting to connect, and I think I can see a solid way forward now. Most of this progress is just coming from a change in perspective, for how I think while playing.
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Originally Posted by p1p
Well done ...
(Try that on ' All of me' if you haven't already)
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Originally Posted by pingu
I'm currently working on 'Old Folks', but I can see I should be able to pick up tunes a little quicker and easier now, going forward. Will try next.
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You're absolutely not wrong for learning the fretboard and chords and playing by ear. I've met too many people that stuck their noses in books for years without listening and they play chord scales up and down. Not that there is anything wrong with reading books - learning theory can shed light on new ideas - but the listening aspect is everything in the music.
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Originally Posted by emanresu
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
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There's an issue here about what you're trying to accomplish.
I think there are some players who improvise by starting with a melodic statement and then recycling it harmonically. So to take a well known example, playing 1 2 3 5 on a series of chords. Nobody does that 100% of the time, but I think it's a reality that some players are more "pattern players" than others.
I hear some players basically run scales, picking up each new scale on a note adjacent to the last one. With good harmonic and rhythmic content it can sound fine.
Still others, have a vast encyclopedia of licks and rely on them -- putting them together in a new way every chorus.
And some are basically scat singing through the guitar. Maybe somebody with great ears can do that while thinking about theory, but anybody can scat sing, at least simply. This is the approach I'm trying to do. All the theory feels like training wheels on a bicycle. That is, the theory helps me avoid clams when the scat singing fails (usually do to poor concentration, not being able to imagine the sound of the next chord in a new chart, or failure to find the note I'm thinking about, leading to a system wide scat singing outage).
The theory hurts when I'm scat singing successfully and suddenly have the bright idea to insert some theoretical consideration into the solo. So, I'm going along ok and I see an Eb7#11 coming up ... I think, I'll hit an A note, or I'll insert my favorite 7#11 lick. That's when the solo heads south, much more often than not.
And, the theory becomes essential when somebody puts a chart I've never seen on my stand, with oddball harmony and then I have to take the first solo. Happened a couple of times on a gig last night. Knowing chord tones is really helpful in that situation. Scales, well, not so much, because I didn't have time to analyze anything and sometimes tonal center isn't obvious. Also, the tunes sometimes have odd numbers of bars in the solo section, they're often engraved with random numbers of bars per line and even occasionally with arcane repeat marks (like a certain number of repeats, then a different set of changes for the horn backgrounds during a third solo chorus or something like that). It's hard to be theoretically clever while also struggling to keep track of where you are in the chart. Chord tones and finding some other notes by ear is the easiest way out for me.
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Originally Posted by TOMMO
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I remember Herb Ellis saying that he didn't really use scales but learned chords in all positions and just strung them together to get lines. Sort of simplistic but, if you do it long enough, you get to where you can go outside the basic chord tones when needed. I also like the Joe Pass theory of maj, min, dom. Another thing to remember is that the guys we all idolize grew up playing in a era where these songs were the '3 chord blues' of the day and they knew them inside and out just from playing them so often. If you play something enough, the melody is lodged in your head making it easier to improvise. Learn to play the changes to a tune in your sleep before attempting to improvise. Just my $0.02. I'm not much into book learning - I think you get better by playing not studying about who played what intervals over which chord in 1954.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
This all takes a while. You can use other study/learning methods as well, there is no correct learning method. But make sure you do the sing and play what you sing a LOT.
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Scatting without guitar helps so much also. I do it while driving quite often, with a backing track. The minimal good it does is that there is gonna be way less chance of getting lost in the form.
When I started this it just seemed like weird practice and couldn't come up with any good ideas and even just disliked my voice somewhat. Just tried to be "in the tracks". But hm, later tried to make a story happen and it sort of works even. After that it has been fun even. More amusing than listening to radio anyway
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Originally Posted by emanresu
Try these over a backing track, without thinking, picking different starting notes and beats. Something will sound OK. Practice a bunch of short patterns and you wind up with a bunch of phrases that kind of work and eventually get you to a chord tone without having to think about where the chord tone is on the fretboard.
Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
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Just found this.. wish I had earlier, but basically reaffirms some of my thoughts. Around 24min. he points it out precisely:
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Originally Posted by p1p
Would it be wrong to memorize the fretboard and play by ear? Absolutely not. Playing by ear is an essential skill, but you can't just do that. You have to do it all. Over and over. Until you can do it in your sleep. Then (and only then) you can forget all the rules, all the scales, all the arpeggios, all the modes, all the licks and all the tricks -- and just play by ear. That's how the masters do it.
So don't abandon your study of scales, but don't let them make you crazy either. Scales aren't music, and I know people who have practiced scales so much that they never learned to play music. You need a balanced approach to learning to play music.
I suggest you take a couple charts, write the appropriate scale over the chord symbol (Major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished, etc.) and practice that way. Mix up the notes in the scales; don't just play them as scales. Find ways to connect one scale to the next. You've gotta work through it. And when it starts to drive you crazy, do different things. Play by ear. Play a solo on one string. Play a solo with one finger. Mess around with the guitar. Learn a few lines of a master's solo off the record. Then go back to your scales and incorporate other elements. You also need to spend some time on arpeggios. You've gotta do it all.
And if you don't have a teacher, I strongly recommend that you find one. A good teacher can steer you, inform you, keep it interesting and keep you motivated. A good teacher is worth his weight in gold. Approach it seriously, because you'll never get good if you don't. This music is challenging. Vary your approach, keep it interesting and don't let it make you crazy. It's supposed to be fun.
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I don't know if you are still here paying attention to this thread. If not I guess some lurker out there might benefit.
I'm a beginner but I have a path so I'm just sharing my path with you and maybe it will work for you. I'll post how I sound like on Soundcloud in the near future.
The importance of playing by ear is that you are hearing and playing from emotion and not thinking. What does that mean? Sure there will be some theory involved like learning song conventions, but most of the time you will just hear the music in your head or in your heart and play. I'm not there yet. To get there I use Earmaster Pro 6 for ear training, I listen to a lot of music very actively, and I learn quite a few songs.
The theory book I recommend is an academic textbook used in all colleges. It's not a complicated book but very straight forward, very simple, very elegant. It is called Tonal Harmony by Kofska and Payne. An older edition is about four dollars on Thriftbooks. I'm only using the first 200 pages or Parts 1-4. The rest is not used in colleges because it's all speculation after that.
Very few commercial books are good. I'm thinking Modern Method is a good commercial book and MI's How To Read Music on Guitar is another good commercial book. Learn to read music and you will not have to memorize the fretboard. The vast majority of Jazz Musicians know how to read music and reading at a high level is a requirement for a college program. There are exceptions but those are exceptions as Nietzche said, "study the rule not the exception."
For me scales are just a learning tool and not a music creation tool.
What I mean by that is they teach 1) what keys sound like 2) how to better read music 3) what notes are in a key. That's pretty much it for me.
I hope this helps. I'm not getting into an argument online. I have better things to do like play Jazz Guitar.
EDIT: Oh, and read Downbeat magazine. It is a Jazz Institution since 1934. You will see they never discuss theory on there and these are the best of the Jazz World at your disposal. They discuss emotions and music creation. Stay away from Guitar World, Guitar Player, Premier Guitar and those magazines.Last edited by Oneofthe; 12-02-2017 at 07:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
I have been approaching it seriously the past month or so, trying to find the best path forward, for me. I've most recently put all books aside, and just started transcribing off records, getting the language and vocab down. I'm making good progress now, I'm sure of it.. and this is probably mostly due to the fact that I'm enjoying it. I enjoy listening to my favourite parts in tunes, figuring it out/PLAYING it (who doesn't enjoy this?), then working it into my own vocabulary. This is how I best retain things.. otherwise I'll just forget in a few months' time.
I haven't disregarded scales, arpeggios, the basics...I'm aware of those, just not practiced to the Nth degree..like modes of modes *shrug. I've come to realize I don't think that way
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