The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I don't think anyone is advocating "scales as process" or "scales as a method for WHAT to play".
    There's that old chestnut "Watch what I do, not what I say". That's why I say it shows up in playing (as opposed to talking about playing).

    Just trying to understand - because I'm learning, like everyone, and I take a lot of statements literally. I'm warning the OP not to make that mistake.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    For me, you can try to sound like real jazz players like Wes or Benson or Grant ... or try to sound like those great new Berklee Boston guitar players that became popular in the late 60s and early 70s.
    Ouch, lol.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    There's that old chestnut "Watch what I do, not what I say". That's why I say it shows up in playing (as opposed to talking about playing).

    Just trying to understand - because I'm learning, like everyone, and I take a lot of statements literally. I'm warning the OP not to make that mistake.
    Sure. That's the paradox of this stuff related to guitar and Internet discussions. It feels like it's always "scales don't MATTER" AND.... "scales and other technical basics are FUNDAMENTAL to becoming a player"... always and always both at the same TIME!

    I actually believe both of these statements are 100% true and not contradictory in the way that people actually mean them when they say them. Took me reading between the lines for several years to understand why though. So I think I understand some of what you're talking about in terms of frustration with it.

    I don't think other instruments have this many hangups with separating language from technical, the way that guitarists do. Very unique guitar psychology at work. It's the thing that reg is always talking about. Technical skills versus performance skills. his contention apparently is that people arguing back-and-forth about the stuff on the are actually having two different conversations. One set is talking about performance skills, and the other technical skills, when actually they're completely separate things.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-27-2017 at 09:12 AM.

  5. #29

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    Clearly, there is no one answer. And it takes time. What I may do now is not what I did when I was beginning or was five years in or 10 or 20 years. It's a progression. Looking at my arc, the only thing I can do, I didn't practice scales in the beginning. Then I practiced scales for 10-15 years. Long hours. Straight up and down. All keys. All positions. Many, many, many exercises. Triplets, 8th, 16th notes. Strange permutations. Improvised with all of them.

    Major, all modes, Harm Minor, Melodic Minor and their modes, , Gypsy Minor, Whole Tone, Diminished, Augmented, Pentatonic, Coltrane Pentatonic, Blues. The last 10-15 years I haven't practiced a scale once. But I'm glad I did.

    For me, I had to.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks for the kind words.

    My impression is that most players don't do it the way I did.

    But, along the way, I tried all kinds of things. Some worked, many didn't.

    I had no idea where I was going most of the time.

    I took lessons at the local music school when I was a kid. I didn't realize it until later, but, because it was New York, the guys teaching the kids were jazz players and got me into jazz. I learned reading from the first lesson. (Belwin #1).

    I wasn't good at learning pattern based approaches, although I know and use some. I wasn't good at transcribing. And, when I did transcribe, not a lot of it got into my playing.

    I took lessons, on and off, and picked up something from a bunch of different teachers, but I was still at an amateur level.

    Then, about 15 years ago I started taking group lessons -- not a group of guitarists, but like a band. I was lucky to get into a group of good musicians and I started recognizing all kinds of weaknesses. So, I worked on ear training. The teacher didn't like licks. He'd stop a student and say "no licks! make melody!". So I worked on that. The charts were hard and there was no mercy, so I worked on reading. The teacher was fanatical about groove, so I worked on time.

    The epiphany for improvisation came when I realized that I could solo pretty well in C major. I knew where every note in the scale was, and I could find the extensions. That knowledge came from reading. And, I realized, at the same time, that I couldn't do it as well in any other key. Some better than others. I thought, maybe I should try to learn all the keys as well as I know C major. So, I drilled.

    Then, when I got IRealPro, it took off. I'd set the tune for 13 repeats. The original key at the beginning and end and a fourth up every chorus. If I got stuck, I'd slow it down. Drilled with it for hours and hours. It got to the point where I could get through most changes with less difficulty, no matter what key. I play a lot of Brazilian music, and there are lots of key shifts, so that knowing all the keys and all the enharmonic equivalents is really helpful.

    Now, I fully understand that there are plenty of great players who didn't do it this way. Maybe all of them. I don't really know if any great player did do it this way. But, it does work and it still seems to me like it might be a good way to become a well rounded jazz guitarist. Given how hard it was for me to learn a scale from 5 patterns in different positions and be able to enter a scale from any note anywhere on the neck, I found my approach easier.

    BTW, I didn't talk about comping, but there's an advantage to not thinking in grips. It can be very helpful to know all the chord tones and just pick a couple that work for the voice leading in a tune.

    I've been playing for 53 years. I don't know if it's going to be helpful to anybody else, but I figure us old guys have a responsibility to pass on what we can.

    I'm also aware that what works for one player may not work for another.
    Thank you for sharing your story. I find it more elucidating than your first post.
    I am getting some practice ideas for my own practice.

  7. #31

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    And as many know, I don't do the backing track practice to practice playing on changes. I think it's MUCH more efficient to NOT use backing tracks, but to force yourself to PLAY the changes when soloing. Make your lines outline the changes.

  8. #32

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    Yea... it's not really complicate, but you first need to decide where your going, where do you want to get with your playing. You know... a goal, when you want do accomplish something, you generally should have an idea of what your trying to accomplish.

    Once you figure out where your going etc... it fairly simple to develop a plan on how to get there.

    Last time I checked... becoming accomplished at just about anything isn't magic. And becoming an accomplished musician... you need to love the process of getting there.

    Some basic advice from an accomplished musician... don't take too much advice from teachers who can't cover etc... and also most great musicians all say it's easy. The old one liner... you are what you practice should be followed by ....your never going to be what you haven't practiced.

    Eventually your able to perform what you haven't practiced by also understanding what your playing and being comfortable enough with music to be in the moment as well as being aware of the possibilities of where the music can go. Being aware of what your going to play before your playing it. That is an advanced discussion... you need basic musicianship first.

    The other approach is memorization and being able to sight read anything.... I also believe in that approach as well.

    Listen to what Henry has to say... he's a very accomplished musician. I'll add that there are two parts to practice... developing technical skills, (what your talking about), and performance skills... being able to use your technical skills to play music, somewhat like being able to play a tune without a backing tract. Your learning how to create music while implying the basic reference... the tune or changes.

    There are more levels of that performance skill... creating more relationships, (adding more complexity to the tune or changes, adding more changes or chord patterns, adding more tonal references... changing the guidelines for how the music moves).

    That would be in the direction of jazz performance skills etc...
    Last edited by Reg; 09-27-2017 at 12:02 PM.

  9. #33

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    One thing I like about backing tracks is they allow you to hear the juxtaposition of a harmonic line against a different harmony -- so you can hear the tension.

    If you play without harmony it sounds one way.

    If you play it with the same harmony it sounds ok..

    For example, you play a line on a Gm7 and then a Gb7 and then Fmaj7.
    But, if you play it against Gm7, C7, Fmaj7, you get to hear the extensions #11 and b9 as creating harmonic tension, which you won't hear otherwise.

    It also allows you to hear clams.

  10. #34

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    Well, I can hear all of that stuff without the backing tracks. I think it's more instructive to do so without them. Otherwise I find I, or rather my students, tend to hunt and peck with their ears, instead of really KNOWING all the intervals of the chords and tensions on their own. I might play the chord progression slowly. But basically, I just improvise and apply the tensions, like I was a tenor player practicing tunes without backing tracks, like they always did it before Jamey Abersold.

    But however you do it, however it works best for you, is the best!
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 09-28-2017 at 10:56 PM.

  11. #35

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    Scales | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons
    Here's a page I put up to explain how I have practiced scales. Kind of. It's very brief. But here are examples of some exercises. Typical stuff.

    1. Memorize the fingerings of all the scale patterns. I use the 7 Scale Patterns, 3 notes per string. I use that for the Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minors too. 3 Notes per string, 7 patterns. All 12 keys.

    2. Improvise with them. First just doodle A LOT with each pattern. Then apply them to songs. Make sure you use all 7 patterns to the point where you're very comfortable with them all.

    3. Exercises. One pattern at a time. All patterns, all keys. Rotate. Typically I came up with various systems. I'd do exercise #1 for example, in 3 keys, all 7 patterns. C, F and Bb. Then I'd do Ex #2 in three more keys. Eb, Ab and Db. OR I'd do each exercise, let's say Ex #1 Scale Patterns 4, 5 and 6 in the key of C, then the next exercise would be on the next 3 scale patterns 7, 1 and 2.

    The deal is to be comprehensive and not miss anything. Get the chops together.

  12. #36

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    Obviously, the next step would be severe application. But then also breaking down into ii-V patterns and smaller and larger arpeggios, visualizing them in the space of the scale patterns. That's when they take on a magical significance and usefulness. I never found too much use for modes, yet I did practice them pretty hard ay one point. So, I don't know.

  13. #37

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    If dexterity is the goal, then you may want to sniff out as much "comfy combos" on the scales as you can. By that "cc" I mean - 99% of lightning fast stuff you hear other people play has no technical limitation.. no obstacles.. no awkward jumps or switches in the fingers - all super comfy. There is a LOT of stuff that's hidden in the scales/patterns like this. Passing tones, some arps, some interval.. zigzags. etc. Whenever you come up with a phrase on the scale that has even 1 slight "speedbump" - It's not gonna work from certain higher speeds. Doesn't mean its useless, just that you said needed dexterity - that's all about comfortable phrases.

  14. #38

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    switch to p4 tuning so that everything you learn is, by definition, the same, from any starting point.

    As soon as you do this, you see that there is 'only 1' major scale fingering.

  15. #39

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    that was a bit glib... clearly you can start a major scale with the first, second, .., or fourth finger... or a minor scale...

    question is what is the preference/default? given a melody, can you immediately, and without unnecessary bifurcation, know how to make your fingers do it... quickly/accurately... at 300 bpm??? jazz guitar is very very challenging!!!

  16. #40

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    Yeah, no. I don’t get that. I use the 7 major scales 3NP string. I agree Guitar is very challenging. But I can do the same without having to have all the strings P4.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #41

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    Just wanted to add a trick to improve speedy playing that actually works quite well and has more than just 1 application.

    Say, your lick or phrase or whatever (bundle of chords even) causes some trouble. Put on a metronome, start with 3 notes of that thing. The last one you land on should be the target and make it sound like one. Oh, don't start at slower tempo at all. Start with the your goal-tempo. Ok, once you got those 3 first notes to work well and effortlessly, add 1 more. Do the same - target is the last note, make it emphasized. It takes a lot of time but seems to work well with most things. Fast tunes like "Yes or No".. and also Parkers tunes. And random licks/scales.
    I always liked to learn those this way instead starting slow and gradually rising tempo.

  18. #42

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    Scales are a framework of music, but in and of itself, are not what most would consider to be melodic [Do Re Mi from The Sound of Music being an exception!]. You might say scales are a template for what's to come. Melody comes from the way notes are creatively arranged. Scales are great for understanding keys and gaining fluidity in your fingers, (kind of like a template or blueprint)but to really PLAY creatively, you have to find the melodic notes that work [for you]. Music at its best is intuitive [...hopefully with a large vocabulary in place]. Young players often make the mistake of forcing rote scales into their playing. Joe Pass uses the word 'lines' a lot, which to me means he is developing new 'hybrid/original' scales/lines all the time. These are intrinsically melodic and musical because YOU created them within the context of what you're playing. Unless you have gobs of time to practice and have high level professional aspirations, I would spend your time developing melodic lines for the songs you play, rather than learning a whole bunch of scales that you may never use in your music.

  19. #43

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    Sorry to revive this thread - I found it searching for practicing scales, which I've been doing a lot of lately.

    I'm finding practicing scales in every key, consciously playing/thinking each note in the scale (not just running a pattern from root), is helping me really get to know the fretboard in all keys. The fingering obviously has to change with certain keys, and this approach just lets me jump to the next note without relying on a specific pattern in that position. It's a heck of a lot of work, which I should have done a long time ago, but I'm already seeing benefits to it.

    Regarding this:

    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    You are a product of what you practise. Practise scales & mechanics: that's what you play. Practise tunes & solos: that's what you play. Very simple.

    Learn tunes & learn guys' solos off records.

    If you want to learn to play 'jazz', don't work on scales at all. Don't waste your time.

    I have it on good authority that Grant, Wes or George NEVER practised scales.

    Peace.
    I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

    You don't think Charlie Parker worked on scales?

    Grant, Wes or George NEVER practiced scales? What?? I hear them use scale runs, Grant Green quite frequently. There's just no way these guys NEVER practiced scales, at least in my opinion. Where did you hear or read this?

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Sorry to revive this thread - I found it searching for practicing scales, which I've been doing a lot of lately.

    Regarding this:


    I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

    You don't think Charlie Parker worked on scales?

    Grant, Wes or George NEVER practiced scales? What?? I hear them use scale runs, Grant Green quite frequently. There's just no way these guys NEVER practiced scales, at least in my opinion. Where did you hear or read this?
    I don't know whether those guys worked on scales or not. I do recall that Charlie Parker worked on things in 12 keys, but I don't know if he did it with scales.

    That said, I agree that you play what you practice. I have spent a lot of time practicing major scales up and down -- and now I have to remind myself not to do that. It's muscle memory, or musically familiar, or something -- and it's hard to expunge. If I had to do it all over again, I'd find a different way.

    Learning solos off records and transposing them to all keys -- while being conscious of the scales, arps and devices -- that might be a less flawed approach.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I don't know whether those guys worked on scales or not. I do recall that Charlie Parker worked on things in 12 keys, but I don't know if he did it with scales.

    That said, I agree that you play what you practice. I have spent a lot of time practicing major scales up and down -- and now I have to remind myself not to do that. It's muscle memory, or musically familiar, or something -- and it's hard to expunge. If I had to do it all over again, I'd find a different way.

    Learning solos off records and transposing them to all keys -- while being conscious of the scales, arps and devices -- that might be a less flawed approach.

  22. #46

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    Musicians have practiced diatonic scales and patterns based on them for hundreds of years. Jazz musicians were no exception to this.

    They may not have practiced chord scales in the modern sense, but chord scales aren't really scales per se...

    But you can find plenty of scalar runs in bop lines, and even earlier. Swing soloists played scalar lines too.

  23. #47

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    In jazz they often say 'practicing scales' meaning cst, impro tool...
    I am not sure if they really practiced that things...
    They probably practiced scale-wise runs and lines...

    But in classical 'practicing scale' is finger dexterity exercise ... technical thing. It's been there for years and I am sure any jazz player also did that... you should be able to smoothly play notes consequently in a key
    I just believe it should be quite focused practice with clear understanding of practical goals.

  24. #48

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    Yeah, that's the confusion. Diatonic scale running is a different thing to CST, a bit of a hidden art in that there's not a huge amount of material dedicated to it. Outlining chord progressions clearly using scales is not something that modern CST style scale use would teach you (of itself), and it's a bit of an art.

    Barry Harris, for instance, is very much about this, but you can see those stepwise scales in the soloists of the past. In fact, it's transcribing bebop lines that drew me into Barry's orbit and the study of scales after a few years of arpeggio work rather than vice versa.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Barry Harris, for instance, is very much about this, but you can see those stepwise scales in the soloists of the past. In fact, it's transcribing bebop lines that drew me into Barry's orbit and the study of scales after a few years of arpeggio work rather than vice versa.
    You mentioned it a few times and I am about to approach it too...
    I mean namely that scale BH thing (not his harmonic theory with which I am more or less familiar)

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Sorry to revive this thread - I found it searching for practicing scales, which I've been doing a lot of lately.

    I'm finding practicing scales in every key, consciously playing/thinking each note in the scale (not just running a pattern from root), is helping me really get to know the fretboard in all keys. The fingering obviously has to change with certain keys, and this approach just lets me jump to the next note without relying on a specific pattern in that position. It's a heck of a lot of work, which I should have done a long time ago, but I'm already seeing benefits to it.

    Regarding this:



    I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

    You don't think Charlie Parker worked on scales?

    Grant, Wes or George NEVER practiced scales? What?? I hear them use scale runs, Grant Green quite frequently. There's just no way these guys NEVER practiced scales, at least in my opinion. Where did you hear or read this?
    Not sarcastic.

    Before I got into playing, I got to know someone who played sublime bebop on guitar and who had learned harmony by hanging out with pianist Bill Evans. That guitarist probably couldn't name the notes in a given scale, and I never heard him play one. He only ever played and/practised music.

    Regarding Grant, Wes and George, send me a PM if you insist on knowing the 'good authority'.