G7#11

[guitarboy]

how does the G7#11 relate to the key of D minor?

[JonnyPac]

G7#11 is probably G Lydian Dominant. Commonly G9#11 or G13#11. It can come from HW dim too. The options there are G7b9#11, G7#9#11, and the natural 13th is available. The G ALT scale gives a #11 too (with every other alteration: b9 #9 b13).

How it relates to a key or progression needs to be in a bigger context to determine the details. If it comes after a Dm, I'd assume it is a V7 in a ii-V7-I of some kind. If it is related to the full key of D Minor/F Major, may be another story.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It's the IV chord?

I think what you're really alluding to is that one can play the G lydian dominant scale (G A B C# D E F G) over a G7 chord, and that scale happens to be the 4th mode of D melodic minor.

EDIT: pipped at the post.

[ronjazz]

A chord doesn't have a "function" on its own; we need what comes before and what comes after.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

A chord doesn't have a "function" on its own; we need what comes before and what comes after.

Originally Posted by guitarboy

how does the G7#11 relate to the key of D minor?

Isn't that what OP gave?

[ronjazz]

Yes, which tells us nothing. In fact, G7#11 has no relationship with the key of Dm, but may be used in a tune in that key, but how? Is it a dominant leading to a C or Gb chord of some kind, used as a modulation?

We can give him an answer if he provides enough info.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A find a lot of posters are coy about providing sufficient information, for whatever reason, and you have to take a stab at the question and wait for them to say, "that's now what I meant. I meant to ask ...".

And I'm not just talking about music. It's an internet thing. Something about assuming the audience knows what you're thinking.

[guitarboy]

thanks greatly. it is preceded by a Dm chord. the song is Beautiful love in Dm and i was thrown by this G7#11 which comes up later in the song right after Dm which at that moment i was looking at as the I chord. i failed to see that it's a ii-V of another key which would be C (major or minor? or maybe doesn't matter). the next 2 chords are Em7b5 to A7b9 which i analyzed as a ii-V getting back to Dm. just trying to figure this stuff out. tx again!

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by guitarboy

thanks greatly. it is preceded by a Dm chord. the song is Beautiful love in Dm and i was thrown by this G7#11 which comes up later in the song right after Dm which at that moment i was looking at as the I chord.

i failed to see that it's a ii-V of another key which would be C (major or minor? or maybe doesn't matter).

the next 2 chords are Em7b5 to A7b9 which i analyzed as a ii-V getting back to Dm. just trying to figure this stuff out. tx again!

I don't think you can see the G7#11 in that song as part of a ii-V in the key of C even if it is preceded by a Dm chord
It seems to me more reasonable to think the Dm as a tonic minor chord,
so you might play a D melodic minor scale over that. And G7#11 can be interpreted as a chord coming from the IV degree of the same melodic minor.
Notice that the music sheet says Dm and not Dm7, contrary to Gm7 that appears somewhere else in the tune, followed by C7 and F (now a ii-V-I in F).
So when improvising, coming to | Dm | G7#11 | I would use a D melodic minor for both chords.

[JonnyPac]

Good points Jazz 175. D MM it is, IMO.

[blindjimmy]

How about this ? Since there is an F and a C7 , we see the key of F maj , and its relative d min. Useing the 5 of the 5 rule, the G7 would be the 5 of the C7 , as well as serving as a jazzy II7 in F .

[AmundLauritzen]

Thinking in key centers and relating chords to them always ensures your lines have a certain gravity to them. G7#11 in D minor. I'd actually relate that to F major since I personally am more comfortable in major key centers, and I know most guitar players are. So in F major, that'd be a II7 chord. For that I'd modify my scale to include the foreign notes. So I'd end up with a scale with the chord superimposed upon it, replacing conflicting notes: GABC#DEF. That's what other people on here called D melodic minor, but analyzing it from G7#11, it's G lydian dominant.
It doesn't matter if you're thinking about the II or the V, as long as you end up with the same set of notes to play with.

II and V are intechangeable after all.

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by blindjimmy

How about this ? Since there is an F and a C7 , we see the key of F maj , and its relative d min. Useing the 5 of the 5 rule, the G7 would be the 5 of the C7 , as well as serving as a jazzy II7 in F .

If you have to go from New York to Boston, I don't see why you should go via Los Angeles.
Even if you arrive at the same conclusion in terms of scale (because then you modify the Fmajor scale to accomodate the third of G7 and #11 thus obtaining the D melodic minor scale, DMMS), I think it's much simpler thinking as I said before:
The tune is clearly in Dminor. The sequence of chords in question is
Dm | G7#11 | Em7b5 | A7 |
so Dm is tonic minor (use DMMS)
G7#11 fourth degree of DMMS and use the same scale.
Then you have a minor ii-V7 pointing to Dm, but actually A7 does not resolve immediately to Dm because the tune goes back to the start with
(again) | Em7b5 | A7 | Dm | (so ii-V7-i in Dm).

[JonnyPac]

Hit this new thread for better info on Lydian Dominant 7#11 chords in common practice.

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...harp-11-a.html

[guitarboy]

there's a Bb7 occurring earlier in the song. the 3rd line has the chords Dm, Gm7, Bb7, (Em7b5) A7. how does the Bb7 relate to Dm?

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by guitarboy

there's a Bb7 occurring earlier in the song. the 3rd line has the chords Dm, Gm7, Bb7, (Em7b5) A7. how does the Bb7 relate to Dm?

My analysis is the following:
Bb7 is still a Bb#11, lidyan dominant (look at the melody, there is an E) which means that the related scale is F minor melodic. This is the same as saying that Bb7 is actually a substitution of E7 altered (superlocrian), a secondary dominant pointing to A7, which comes next (actually preceded by Em7b5).