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'Guitar player? GO AWAY!!'---Gene Bertoncini (said with love)...
Originally Posted by christianm77
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10-03-2017 10:10 AM
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Codification is schools' gravy train. No codification, no racket... Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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This will sound like a radical departure, perhaps---but WTF: Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
The problem begins, I fear, with elementary school---arts or no. I was lucky. My teachers my entire life were nothing less than wonderful. Others can't claim such luck. I have seen more than creativity stifled, I've seen humans stifled and ignored---or worse. The system is rigged to kill individuality----sounds like an oversimplification, but I really believe it's so. Individuality is inconvenient, and can be troublesome to school officials---so they kill it at all costs. And well-meaning teachers are almost as much deer in the headlights as the students. They are torn between their desire to bring children out and the need to 'go along to get along'---and stay employed.
'Follow the herd' is the order of the day in schools from elementary to post-graduate (I have a masters in library science----fortunately, I slept through most of it). By the time a kid gets to college age he/she is ripe picking for 'codification' or whatever other pablum he's about to be fed.
So for me it's not about whether it's guitar or pipe-fitting. It's the education culture that's rotten from the head down. I had plans to go into education myself years ago. I did work for a while, but once I saw what was happening (I taught in a tough urban vocational HS)---what a pile of horse manure it was---no matter how bad I felt for the kids I had to look at it selfishly and bolt, or possibly face a life of misery.
I'd even go so far as to say that if I ruled the world compulsory education would be outlawed. The only advantage to me is socialization---but that can be gotten elsewhere. Kids home-schooled by the right kind of parents----and taken to concerts, museums, etc. AND taught critical thinking. Those are the kind of kids that IMO may just make a contribution in a world that needs contributions more than ever.
Sorry for the rant, guys. It's been on my mind for a long time---and, I believe----ultimately germane to the discussion.
Off the soapbox...Last edited by fasstrack; 10-03-2017 at 11:23 AM.
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Success and fame has more to do with being at the right place at the right time regardless of schooling, but that's not to say that schooling can't help.
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I'm just happy this isn't considered 'jazz' anymore. It makes people feel good instead of stupid;
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Saying that jazz education is responsible for sterile playing is like saying reading hurts your playing.
You think Dan Wilson and Paul Bollenback play sterile and antithetical to the spirit of jazz? Guys who don't have the feel or spirit of jazz in their hearts will always be sterile no matter where they study. And where do you draw the line? Is studying jazz with a teacher going to make you a sterile player?
The truth is that a good player will become a good player despite whether or not they get a college degree. It's the heart that determines this, not whether or not you study formally.
Music college is a great place to network and to expose yourself to other players, styles, etc. As someone who attended a great jazz music school I speak from firsthand knowledge. Some of my classmates were T Lavitz (dixie dregs), Randy Johnston, Bruce hornsby , Will Lee, Peter Harris and many others who are great players and went on to remarkable music careers. Paul Bollenback arrived as I was on my way out. Metheny and Diorio and Ron Miller taught there. The compositional and improvisational knowledge and inspiration I gleaned is something that I still draw upon almost 40 years later. I still work on material that I have from my studies at the university of miami.
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Once again, I didn’t make any of the arguments you are refuting. Originally Posted by jzucker
Last edited by ThatRhythmMan; 10-03-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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Don't confuse schoolin' with education.
Donald Byrd, I'm pretty sure, was a pretty good player before going on, later, I believe for an advanced degree in music education. (He also got a law degree, I believe. Like Hoagy Carmichael (and possibly Cole Porter as well), who dropped out of law school, I think it was a good thing he spent his time in music.)
There's a larger point here. The widespread availability of student lending through quasi-gvt. agencies has led many to argue that U.S. students of all types have taken on student debt that is not supportable, and which might have never occurred, absent gvt. underwriting of student lending. Graduating from college these days with a degree in "Critical (fill in your own blank) ___ Studies" and $100K of debt, which cannot even be discharged in bankruptcy, amounts to a unintended and crushing burden on the backs of the Millennials. Mainstream publications have devoted entire magazine issues to this. Pretty sure U.S. News & World Report did an issue last Aug., 14 mos. ago. (I think many parents are going to be spending a LOT of time with their children...way into the future. The joke about the kid living in the basement may be all too real, for many.)Last edited by goldenwave77; 10-03-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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And Erroll Garner, Eddie Diehl and all 3 Montgomery brothers couldn't read a note. According to Red Rodney every time he asked Bird a question about what he played he always said 'Bb7'. Also said Gil Evans was 'tremendously self-educated'----went to the library, etc.
In the same interview, Rodney went on to say 'It 's not how you got it, it's what you got'. If you get it from school, walks down a country lane----whatever----as long as you put it in a funnel and it comes out art...
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
As the legends say in books and interviews "the band's were the music school's". The bands back then were together for years and young musicians would join one and get mentored by the elders in the bands. Then young musicians after a few years in one band would leave and join another not for money, but to learn from different mentors.
The 50's-60's came people started codifying Jazz so schools could make money. Most the old cats didn't like the Jazz education and how things were taught. Sadly the music schools are necessary today because the system of bands are gone and there are so few clubs left. Even the gigs changed from back in the days a band would play a club for a week or two sometimes even a month, now a group play a one or two sets. So today the schools are where young musicians can perform. Playing is the real teacher and your ears your best instructor.
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I think there are some terrific, terrific players coming out of university programs.
At the Detroit Festival, I saw 2 sessions with Mich. State faculty (Michael Dease, Etienne Charles, Diego Rivera, etc.) and they were outstanding....seriously good, straight-ahead jazz players. (Look up "Professors of Jazz" on YT to find some of their playing.)
BUT...it is a legitimate question about how to make a living with this training. I think students have started to re-evaluate the whole college music training scene, and whether it is worth doing.
(Rick Beato has a video on "making a living in music"....I haven't looked at it, but he clearly knows his stuff, and seems to do pretty well, and it IS a legitimate question.)Last edited by goldenwave77; 10-03-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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Private study is the way IMO. I studied with the best---and I learned b/c they were sharp cookies and could also teach. Not everyone can get on the bandstand with the elders. I was able to, but they're dying off. Private study, where the teacher can give full attention to the student, is the next best thing.
I guess the second best would be a small non-school workshop with a teacher everyone respects, especially if an actual gig for the students could be facilitated...
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Motivated, independently self-driven education with great instructors trumps institutionalized music education which is grade driven every time in my book. Originally Posted by fasstrack
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BTW: To clarify, I went to City College. My instructors were the late Ed Summerlin, Ron Carter, Bob Norden and later the classical music professors. They all taught me tons, and I'm glad I attended...
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Grades? Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
When I taught for a hot minute in that HS (George Westinghouse Vocational, in DUMBO, Brooklyn) a gym teacher asked me with a straight face if he could keep 'borrowing' the same kid 'loaned' to him by the previous music teacher so the kid could help him in gym---and, oh, go ahead and pass the kid, wink, wink. That's what goes on, and why I ran for the hills...
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I like that more Jazz clubs and colleges are doing Residencies now. Steve Coleman does a handful year anywhere from a week to his month at The Stone. I see other musicians doing more residencies helping teach as well as play.
For those not familiar with the term what happens during a residency is the artist and their band comes to a club and at night they play as usual. During the day they go and do clinics have discussion groups, give lessons. So by day they talk music and by night you get to hear what they were talking about put to use.
To keep costs down the musicians in residence many times stay with local residents or if residency is at a school the school will provide dorm rooms. This all about the old school way of teaching and the musicians giving back in the way that most of them got their start.Last edited by docbop; 10-03-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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To tell you the truth, I'd like to teach jazz class myself. I like teaching beginners for reasons not germane here, but lately have been hearing young cats at jams around and they need guidance IMO. No slam on their talent or sincerity, but my ears ain't lying. I'd do it for nada even, b/c I care about the future of this music. Don't know tunes, don't swing, run changes soloing, can't play a melody with feeling---just rush through it to get to the solo, can't accompany singers---you get the idea. If what they're doing is what's being taught in school, sorry but shame on the schools...
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It sounds like you are getting some real live music deserts in the US outside the obvious centres like NY, Nashville etc. Originally Posted by jzucker
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I agree with some of what you say. I think Bruce Foreman’s comments on the most recent Guitar Wank are really significant here. Anyway.... Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Hmmm to put this in perspective the guitar is still much more popular than traditional orchestral instruments. I wouldn’t be surprised if we weren’t seeing a general decline in people playing instruments.
Increasingly people see any instrumental ability as rarefied. This is a tremendous shame.
OTOH technique is at an absolute pinnacle. Setting aside guitar, professional pianists have a mastery of technique that would be astounding to previous generations. Pieces that used to be playable only by one or two in the world are now mastered by music college students.Last edited by christianm77; 10-03-2017 at 04:21 PM.
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Technique is at a pinnacle b/c this is the digital age and it's so easy to copy. Is MUSIC at a pinnacle?
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I don’t think so
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But I’m not sure if I’d know tbh
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Btw I added it to an earlier post, but the latest guitar sank podcast has some very salient points on this subject from Bruce Foreman. And Scott Henderson kind of says the same stuff a bit....
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TBH? Over my head. Originally Posted by christianm77
And I wasn't dissing what you said, BTW. But someone supposedly asked Monk about technique.
'That's a technical question'...
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Don't know Scott's work. Dig Bruce, though. Good player... Originally Posted by christianm77
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