George Benson Picking Method

simonguitar · #1 02-17-2009, 01:40 PM

I have recently (and somewhat late in life) discovered what has come to be known as the George Benson method of holding a pick (rotated by 90 degrees). I'm like a kid again, my guitar sounds so nice and clear, and my attack has improved a lot, which in turn has improve my phrasing.

Are there any others out there who use this method? Tuck Andress has a nice explanation here: Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques

I apologise if I overlooked an existing thread on this subject.

Simon.

JohnW400 · #2 02-17-2009, 02:14 PM

Coincidentaly, I just read something about this on another board. I think it was AAJ. I recall someone had some things to say about the Tuck style regarding hurting their thumb. FYI

simonguitar · #3 02-17-2009, 02:56 PM

So far, I haven't had any trouble with my thumb (which is not double jointed like GB's), and so I press the tip of my thumb into the back of my index finger--with the pick sandwiched inbetween. It's weird at first, but then totally liberating. I believe Sheryl Bailey uses this method as well.

Simon.

mcohen777 · #4 02-19-2009, 04:53 PM

Man, I just read that Tuck Andress article the other day, but I couldn't make sense of the George Benson technique completely. I've looked at videos to try and get the shape of it, but I don't know if I got it completely. Is there any way to clarify in easier terms (I don't understand the rotating 90 degrees directions), or post an image of some sort?

JohnW400 · #5 02-19-2009, 04:59 PM

Theres a foto somewhere on this site. I'll have to look for it.

mcohen777 · #6 02-19-2009, 05:16 PM

That would be greatly appreciated

fep · #7 02-19-2009, 08:22 PM

Here's the picture, I wish it was clearer though... a close up on his hand from different angles is what's needed

fep · #8 02-19-2009, 08:42 PM

I just took some pictures (you know that as good as a 1000 words bit)

The common way to hold a pick:

The Benson way:

trtjazz · #9 02-19-2009, 08:47 PM

Hopefully this helps. I use this method and all it is is to take the pointed part of the pick and aim it back towards your palm instead of the guitar as normally done. The method does work great.

fep · #10 02-19-2009, 09:05 PM

Terry,

The main point of the way Benson picks is that he bends his thumb back and rotates the plane of the pick 90 degrees. This way the plane of the pick is parallel to the picking motion (not perpendicular as it is in the common way of holding a pick.

It's not about where you aim the pointy part of the pick.

mcohen777 · #11 02-19-2009, 10:38 PM

So is the pick approaching the string from a downwards angle or an upwards angle, or is it still approaching the string straight on? And is the pick pointing forwards or is it angled towards the bridge or the neck? Maybe I'm over complicating this technique but I just want to get it completely correct so I don't end up practicing some half-assed version of it for months

And thanks for the pictures, that helps a lot.

fep · #12 02-20-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcohen777

So is the pick approaching the string from a downwards angle or an upwards angle, or is it still approaching the string straight on? And is the pick pointing forwards or is it angled towards the bridge or the neck? Maybe I'm over complicating this technique but I just want to get it completely correct so I don't end up practicing some half-assed version of it for months

And thanks for the pictures, that helps a lot.

This is hard to explain. But the movement of the pick is produced by a rotation of the wrist and forearm, you can see this by looking at Benson videos on youtube. That is same motion to what many players use when holding a pick in a standard fasion. So if I understand your question correctly, I believe we would refer that to the pick is 'still approaching the string straight on'.

In that picture I posted, the position of the hand and angle of the pick is similar before and after the attack. In other words, from the picture it would be hard to tell 1) whether I'm about to pick the E string or 2) whether I just picked the B string... both those photos would look pretty similar.

The difference in tone comes from attacking the string from the narrow edge of the pick in the Benson approach vs. attacking from the flat part of the pick with the standard approach.

Regarding your second question. If you hold the pick in a standard manner (my first picture) and then while still holding the pick bend your thumb (hopefully you're double jointed enought) to go from the standard grip to the benson grip. Hopefully doing this will answer your 2nd question.

I hope that helps. It's very easy to show this to someone, but hard to explain with just words.

simonguitar · #13 02-20-2009, 11:21 AM

It's amazing that there are so few pictures of this out on the web. I looked at a bunch of youtube videos of GB and Sheryl Bailey when I was starting to switch to this method.

For me, it works well to squeeze my thumb into the pad of my index finger (with my thumb nail approximately in the center of the pad), with the pick held in between. I try to keep the pick perpendicular to the top of the guitar (in both planes), and that gives me a very clear attack.

I will try and take some pictures this weekend (although as a novice at this techniqe, I'm probably not the person to follow!).

trtjazz · #14 02-20-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fep

Terry,

The main point of the way Benson picks is that he bends his thumb back and rotates the plane of the pick 90 degrees. This way the plane of the pick is parallel to the picking motion (not perpendicular as it is in the common way of holding a pick.

It's not about where you aim the pointy part of the pick.

It appears to me from his picture that he's using more the rounded part of his pic as opposed to the pointy part, but ok if you say so.

fep · #15 02-20-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trtjazz

It appears to me from his picture that he's using more the rounded part of his pic as opposed to the pointy part, but ok if you say so.

He may be using the rounded part of the pick, from what I've read they haven't discussed that. But a lot of folks do that. What makes Bensons approach unique is the way he bends his thumb back in a double jointed manner which results in him attacking the string from the narrow edge part of the pick.

As an aside it is interesting how this compares to the way a fingernail attacks the string in the 'Pepe Romero' classical guitar approach (a very common approach for classical guitarists, I'm just using Pepe Romero as an example). During the string attack the string first touches the flesh and outside edge of the fingernail, the string then slides along the finger nail a little bit, the attack if finished at about 1/3rd of the way along the fingernail. This gives that nice rounded classical tone as opposed to a more treble clicky tone if you attack the strings perpindicularly. With the Benson approach there is also a tiny moment where the string is sliding along the edge of the pick which also results in a more rounded tone.

Check out the link in the original posters first post on this thread. Tuck Andress gives the best discussion on picking technique that I've ever seen (including Benson's technique).

mcohen777 · #16 02-20-2009, 11:56 AM

Thanks for all the advice. Is the pick hitting the string from an angle or is the pick level with the string (meaning right above it or right below it) Based off the picture, it seems like the pointy part of the pick comes at the string from an angle, but maybe im viewing it wrong.

fep · #17 02-20-2009, 12:03 PM

Yeah, it is at an angle, the plane of the pick is not at 90 degrees to the string, the lower edge of the pick is a bit closer to the back of the guitar. Maybe closer to but greater than 45 degrees measured from the bridge side of the hand. This will vary some depending on how double jointed your thumb is.

I'd like to add that my understanding of this comes from 1) the Tuck Andress article linked in the first post of this thread, 2) watching George Benson videos and 3) experimenting with it myself to see how it felt and worked. So I'm no more of an authority on this than what that implies. I think your best way to understand this is to take the same steps I took, or take a lesson from Tuck Andress... he does teach.

mcohen777 · #18 02-20-2009, 12:23 PM

Alright I think I got it now, thanks. Yeah, the Tuck Andress article is great but i just get lost at certain points when he brings in angles and degrees into play. But I think I got it now.

mcohen777 · #19 02-23-2009, 10:22 PM

Does the oscillation naturally occur when you play with the Benson technique, or do you need to figure that out too?

bluemood · #20 03-06-2009, 12:25 AM

Carlos Santana uses that way of picking...You use three fingers (P) Thumb (I)1 finger and index,(M) middle finger all holding the pick at the same time...I use light gauge stings I don't really need that much force when I play... A light touch as much as posible but sometimes when I dig in or play the higher register I'll use all three fingers ,also like to use fingers and pick.

seagullc · #21 03-19-2009, 08:44 PM

Strange.. I always thought holding the pick parrallel to the picking motion was the normal way to hold/use a pick. Fep's image showing the "normal" way to pick feels incredibly awkward to me and gets a much more trebly sound.

markf · #22 03-20-2009, 06:14 PM

I have read tuck article, great article, I tried the technique, it works really well, for articulation at high speed, but it stiffened my wrist; that is a problem in other ways, cause I think stiffness is the #1 enemy of improvising.

I think Benson might be the fastest player I have ever heard, but also, kind of boring, cause no-one (except maybe charlie parker) can think whilst playing that fast, and it descends into boring riffitude I would say. Impressive technically, uninteresting musically.

markf · #23 03-20-2009, 06:42 PM

When I tried the Benson style as best I could, (I think the arched thumb is the essence of it) I found that there was 0 slipping of the pick.

I was a little surprised, cause I didn't think the pick was slipping, when holding it "normally" ;

I realized after trying this arched thumb benson style, that it was imperceptably slipping when I held it normally (as shown in the pictures in this thread. And that you lose some precision cause of that.

The Benson style gives you a vice grip on the pick, and I think that's where the great articulation comes from. But as I said, for me, it caused stiffness in my wrist.

franco6719 · #24 03-21-2009, 08:42 AM

Hmm.... a little bit off-topic, but all I really know of George Benson is the pop stuff and some (very amazing mind you!!) Youtube videos. Any recommendations for classic Benson LPs in bebop style?

franco6719 · #25 03-21-2009, 08:45 AM

Personally, I think Art Tatum was the fastest though. (0:

markf · #26 03-21-2009, 10:50 AM

George Benson's album "Beyond the Blue Horizon", has some ridiculously fast guitar picking.

ner1971 · #27 03-21-2009, 11:09 AM

I think the first 2 George Benson Quartet LPs on Columbia (It's Uptown & The George Benson Cookbook) are good places to start for his straight-ahead playing. These have been reissued on CD/are on iTunes and are pretty easy to get a hold of.

There are some really good tracks on the Verve/A&M/CTI discs, but in my opinion you have to dig through some less interesting material to find them (+1 for iTunes).

I really like his early work with the Jack McDuff Quartet, with whom he recorded several discs. His playing is much more raw and leans more towards his R&B upbringing, but it makes for some exciting music. "Live!" has long been a favorite of mine. It's very cool to hear Benson getting his thing together.

Alright, back to the topic at hand...

franco6719 · #28 03-22-2009, 05:33 AM

Well, anyway this was (is?) a good thread. I hadn't even realized until now that my picking style is "normal". There are a lot of different approaches to check out. Something I hadn't really though about. Now, I just want to find that excellent damned fat, stone-type pick I had about 20 years ago but never saw again, except on line.

BluesWaltz · #29 03-28-2009, 07:00 PM

I've used this method for a while, but recently I've run into problems with thumb soreness/tenderness that I'm trying to solve. I think the problem may stem from the fact that my thumb bends back like a "hitchhiker's thumb." This means I can bend the joint back so far that I can grip between both finger pads (thumb and index).
Unfortunately, I'm thinking this could lead to problems if I don't modify it. Benson's thumb bends back, but mine seems to bend back even more than his. I've been wondering if that has been the source of the pain, or if this is just normal wear and tear that I need to build up a resistance to.
Simonguitar, you said you grip the pick with a straight thumb, correct? Doesn't the thumbnail get in the way? I've tried it that way and I can't seem to get the same angle on the pick because my thumbnail makes contact with the face of the pick, making it hard to keep the pick from slipping.
I'm set to go to a hand doctor in two weeks, and I'm really hoping I can find something out that way because I really don't want to change my style. I've been playing this way for 2 1/2 years and it works great for me.

By the way, the tenderness in my thumb only started since I've upped my playing time...yesterday it was 6 1/2 hours, and I noticed some fatigue and minor sharp pains in my thumb. It isn't serious now, but it seems like one of those things that could just get worse. I'm going to try playing for about 4 hours today (because I have to practice that much... I'm in music school). If it hurts again, I'm going to be really bummed out...

simonguitar · #30 03-28-2009, 08:18 PM

In the UK (where I was born) a thumb that bends backwards like GB's is called a 'money thumb'. I don't have one (or the $$ that goes with it). I keep my thumbnail trimmed pretty short and I dont have a problem with it touching the pick and de-stabilizing my grip.

For all things related to hand and wrist pain, I swear by a simple excercise that uses a stick. Check out www.wristwand.com, you have to buy the stick to see how to perform the excersise, but it is very effective, and keeps me playing.

Hope this helps.