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My chart is in Bb. I didn't even get to the B section but wanted to look at bars 1-16 to see if the BH stuff would just suggest itself. Given more time I'm sure I would add movement between these chords.
Even though the "6 on the fifth" was used I still labeled via functional harmonics ( bar 11 C9 ).
I did label ( bar 14 ) the C min as a sus4 chord. There seems to be controversy about a chord with a third and a forth so that is open to discussion. ( I read that if the third is in the upper register then the sus label is correct.)
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08-07-2017 09:24 AM
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Here’s my take on Cherokee using a chart from the Howard Roberts study group going on in the Players forum. This is a tad long-winded with a lot of thinking and listening towards the end, but I guess it will give you an idea of how I work through stuff using the BH approach.
This all culminates in a whopping 17 seconds at the end where I actually play what I’ve worked out. So skip ahead if you want the dessert, then go back and get your meat and potatoes. Hope this helps someone, and no, I don’t beat my wife.
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Wow! Thanks everyone. I'm blown away that everybody offered up their approaches to Cherokee. My question was actually much simpler. I was just looking for a cool move to get from Eb to Db. I was just giving Cherokee up as an example of a downward stepwise movement done quickly.
However, in the spirit of the study group here are my quick thoughts on Cherokee:
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The trouble is that movement is not related to anything in the harmony of Cherokee at that point, which might be causing some confusion. Are you moving from Eb to Db simply because the melody descends by a whole tone at that point? If so, it might work as an unusual re-harmonisation if you are playing unaccompanied, but not so well in a group context.
Originally Posted by rlrhett
Also I wouldn't try that move on Cherokee at a Barry Harris workshop, I reckon he'd go nuts!
There are tunes which have a downward step like that (e.g. second half of How Insensitive goes from Dm to Cm), could have a think about that one for example.Last edited by grahambop; 08-08-2017 at 07:44 AM.
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I think he might be talking about the bridge. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Maybe, but this is what he actually said; "Cherokee. First two bars set up an easy transition from B to Eb. But then we do this detour in bar 6 to Db for a couple of bars. That is the most troubling for me." Originally Posted by christianm77
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Thank you christianm77. You are right. I also said, "...in the B section we move through B->A->G-> thing as well..."
In my original question I did not reference Cherokee at all. Wilson1 asked for an example. I apologize if for some that proved confusing.
As for bars 7-8, they are called out in my fake book as Ab dominant chords. The melody line goes from D to C. Yes, I think of that as a Db major with a b9th, which is why in the video example I play it as a dominant 7 chord followed by what I visualize as a Db6 with a borrowed C. Obviously this could be thought of as a Abo -> Ab69 as well. I don't know why Barry Harris would go nuts over that, but I've never been to one of his workshops. This study group is as close as I'm likely to ever get here in my little backwoods.
If you don't think what I played in the video works, please let me know how you would do that. For me, this is about learning new moves and ideas. If the enharmonics is confusing, we don't need to talk about Cherokee at all in this context. As I mention in the video, my question wasn't specifically about Cherokee. I love that people went there, but if it is easier to think of it as d-7 -> c-7 in "How Insensitive," that's fine too.Last edited by rlrhett; 08-08-2017 at 03:53 PM.
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Regarding the Ab7 in Cherokee that is what's called a non-resolving 7th chord and shouldn't be thought of in terms of resolving to Db. Non- resolving 7ths are Lydian Dominant, coming from the 4th mode of the melodic minor. That would make Eb minor scale a more appropriate note choice. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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Yes. Cool. Thank you. The Eb-6 does not sound right to me there, but perhaps going from Eb6 to Gb6(Eb-7) would sound nice. That's a brothers/sisters thing, so very BH.
As far as single note soloing, obviously not everyone agrees. WZGPSR posted some pages from Howard Roberts where he calls out soloing using Dbmaj. I suppose you can think of that as Eb dorian.
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Mention of Lydian Dominant is heresy to the church of Barry. Begone, foul agent of Berklee!
I would use the Ebm6-dim on the Ab7
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Let's not get hung up on names when we're saying the same thing. Ebmi6 over the Ab7. Originally Posted by christianm77
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The BH approach is very hung up on terminology. I get told off for getting it wrong haha Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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OK I've just played around with that movement in How Insensitive i.e. Dm7 to Cm7. The sound I like best is simply to go Dm7, Dbdim, Cm7.
Kind of obvious but I just like the voice-leading it gives. But I think rlrhett already mentioned this option in his video.
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Well, I was having a nice time studying Mr. Kingstones book and getting the hang of things...picking up ideas and some cool chord hybrids.
Then I was diverted with a chart and some harmonic movement problem that I don't think is solved yet...
... and the dreaded DEAD THREAD..... hahahahaha......just kidding.........just kidding!
Anyway, I'm noodling with Cherokee and came up with this CODA that I like (still fooling with the bridge)and I hope some of you will also.
The thing is that I can come up with hybrid chords but what about LABELING them?
Here I've highlighted two (built with borrowed tones) that represent a V-I move and relate by thirds....but what's the chord?
Thanks for your time and any comments.Last edited by WILSON 1; 08-12-2017 at 07:51 AM.
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WHOA! Two typos in the graphic...I should be banned from the forum. (I've edited the original post...I wish I could edit the shame.)
Measure 1 now shows a II as the first chord and the Fm6 chord has been changed to F#m6 that would be the bII on the F7.
(Listen, it was Chianti night at the restaurant and I should have just gone to bed.)
The fourth measure is a third inversion G7 with +5.
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Do you mean the unnamed ones in bars 9 and 10? Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Well, I was having a nice time studying Mr. Kingstones book and getting the hang of things...picking up ideas and some cool chord hybrids.
Then I was diverted with a chart and some harmonic movement problem that I don't think is solved yet...
... and the dreaded DEAD THREAD..... hahahahaha......just kidding.........just kidding!
Anyway, I'm noodling with Cherokee and came up with this CODA that I like (still fooling with the bridge)and I hope some of you will also.
The thing is that I can come up with hybrid chords but what about LABELING them?
Here I've highlighted two (built with borrowed tones) that represent a V-I move and relate by thirds....but what's the chord?
Thanks for your time and any comments.
I call those Cm11b5 and F7#5#9. Sounds good!Last edited by grahambop; 08-12-2017 at 08:22 AM.
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Actually, now that I re-read it...
I'd like your opinion on the II to VII 7 move too. I used the MAJOR diminished from Key: D (important dim of the dominant A7) and added a root A.
I've never looked at that dim chord on the third (dominant b9) with an added root. I usually think of the dim sub as masking the root with the b9.
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That's it...that's the ticket...thank you. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by grahambop
OK, F7#5#9
You ok with Cmin no third? Is that 11 a sus4?
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Maybe, I think chord naming is not a precise science really! I tend to think of sus chords implying a major function, i.e. the major 3rd has been raised. But here it seems more like a minor function although as you say no third is actually present. I guess I am thinking if you lowered that 11, you would change it to the minor 3rd not the major 3rd, in this context. So I would call it Cm to imply that. Originally Posted by WILSON 1
OK, F7#5#9
You ok with Cmin no third? Is that 11 a sus4?
Also saying sus4b5 would confuse me, it suggests these intervals are voiced next to each other. 11b5 suggests they are kept well apart (well to me it does!)
Of course in 'Barry' terms these 2 chords are simply Ebmin6 and Gbmin6 (with a borrowed note on top).
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That sounds fine to me. You could also view it as a Cm7 Dbdim Dm7 move, a common sound and you've got that nice upward chromatic line in the bass. Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Last edited by grahambop; 08-12-2017 at 01:23 PM.
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when think whole tone scale, I hear dominant 7b5 chords. I love the 7b5 diminished scale in Alan's book, and even though only briefly mentioned, I use it more than min6 dim for altered sounds. at least recently
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Yes I need to use that one more, I haven't really explored it yet. But there's so much in Alan's book, I just found the bit near the end about playing scales in tenths, that looks interesting (Martin Taylor was talking about this in a video on another thread). Originally Posted by joe2758
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another wholetone thing to do is start the scale on a single note then play the scale in contrary motion while filling in the the middle note with alternating augmented tones.
C
Bb-D
Ab-C-E
Gb-Bb-D-Gb
etc. change the middle voices as needed to make it easy enough, but are still alternating between a C aug and Bb aug
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