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Your bigger observation on the sub-dominant I don't fully understand. However, I think that it is similar to something I have rattling around in my head. I can't get out of my mind that there are three families of dim chords. My instinct want to assign the values of "tonic", "dominant", and "sub-dominant" to each family. But I really don't have the knowledge to flesh out those beginnings of a personal Grand Unifying Theory.
I feel like Alan K's book has barely gotten my feet wet with this material and now I'm a bit overwhelmed and without direction as to where to go next. I know that the book moves on to partial chords, the "borrowing" concept, and single note lines but there is so much still to understand on harmonizing different progressions and coloring those progressions. In a minor tonality, when is it better to use min6 and when the min7/relative maj6? When is it better to play a dim, a min6, a 7b5 on a cadence? How do aug chords fit in? how about 7#5? What is the best way to voice lead a Imin6 - IVmin6? Is there a cool chromatic move that works? So on and so on...
I'm going through a list of standards now and trying to reharmonize them using what I've learned here in the hopes to solidify the knowledge. It's slow going though. I did not come from a jazz background, and these "standards" are not pieces I know very well. I am having to learn and listen to the melodies over and over again (thank you YouTube and Ella Fitzgerald!) before I can even begin to approach the material with the BH method.
I hope someone else will do a deep dive into the "Monk Moves" or "borrowing". I am sure that will help snap me out of my daze. For now I'm afraid I'm a little lost in the weeds with this.
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06-18-2017 11:35 PM
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I don't think there are any clear-cut rules for this. They are all options which are available. Ultimately I think you just choose whichever one sounds best to you in the context.
Originally Posted by rlrhett
Applying the system to actual tunes and progressions is definitely the way to go. But it is slow work at first, I found that too.
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Now you are seeing the problem. Originally Posted by rlrhett
It's fine to spell out a D2 chord and see the consecutive, non-consecutive tones but what about a diminished chord moving to a 7b5 in all inversions...on your fretboard?
Take a minute and look at G dim on string set 1-4. (xx5656...sorry I know you know it.)
You recognize that as the important dim of A7 ( roots found on A7's 3rd, 5th, 7th and b9th and the dim associated with D6 diminished scale as we are studying in AK's book.
If you want to re-voice that as a 7b5 your two non-consecutive voices are alto, soprano.
BUT...Slide that dim up to Bbo.
Now to get a 7b5 your two non-consecutive voices are the bass and tenor.
Same for string set 2-5.
Moving that dim found on A7's third to a 7b5 requires you move the alto, soprano.
But the dim on A7's fifth (Eo) now requires a bass, tenor move.
I needed a way to 'see' that on the fretboard and the solution for me was to see the tritone of the dominant in question (Eb7) and its inversions then flatten the fifth.
Moving from the important dim of the original dominant to THAT voicing of the tritone with a flat five showed the non-consecutive voices.
I am working on a vid but have been sided tracked for the moment.
I know the Roni Ben-Hur stuff is sending you through the cycle of 4ths! Good!
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I'm glad you found a way of visualizing what you wanted.
Just to add to the conversation, I think part of the point of having a "parent" dim (to use Pat Martino language) is that it doesn't matter WHICH two voices you move, or whether you move them up or down. Now, to be honest, I'm not a, "just play what you hear, man!" type player. I like knowing what I am doing. But the dim will spawn 4 different 7b5, each of which will resolve to that Dmaj. I think the voice leading to the D6 of your choice will determine which one you want to use.
As usual, here is a video showing what I mean:
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Well, I for one am very glad we are on the same page. Originally Posted by rlrhett
You are right the dim will "spawn" four 7b5...I just don't "see" them all as 7b5!
If you take that dim on G (key Dmaj) and lower the alto and soprano and resolve, you get A7b5 and its ti-tone Eb7b5.....V7b5-I
But if you raise those two voices you get A9+...V9+ -I !
Depends on how you feel about functional harmonics.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Or you could call it Db7b5 & G7b5.
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Hope I'm not 'muddying the water' but if you're moving from A7 to D or V-I, I'm thinking that A7 is either Bbm6 or Em6 and the dim associated with both of those is A, C, Eb, or Gb. Whichever of those you choose to think of it as, they're the R, #9, #11, 13 of A7 and will resolve nicely to D. If I've missed something important, any input would be appreciated. Btw, from the 'sisters & brothers' perspective, A7, C7, Eb7, & Gb7 are interchangeable, so Bbm6/A dim or Ebm6/A dim could also resolve to key centers F, Ab, or B as well as D.
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thought this might be of interest, and it's only $4.99 The Jazz Sax & Improvisation Blog of Saxophonist Bobby Stern - bobbysternjazz.com
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I purchased that right away, thanks! Originally Posted by SeanZ
Jump right in with any observations you feel are helpful.
We encourage you to purchase Alan Kingstone's book, " The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar" which we are studying here.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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That is cool. Thank you.
Be sure to post your link on the "Barry Harris" thread, as this one is generally about harmonizing using Barry Harris approach and specifically is a study group around the A. Kingstone book.
A study group on BH single line improvising would be a great follow on to this study group. Perhaps the "Talk Jazz" book by Roni Ben Hur?
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Ok rirhett,
Nice vid. Those voicings moving into inversions are very nice...I'll be working on that.
I see now that I'm too locked into seeing the V-I movement; the very thing Barry Harris and Alan Kingstone are trying to get us away from.
I've been fooling around with some m6 scale lines as a result of your video that suggested the IV 7b5- I
movement and VII 7b5- I and they work! (this was why I was quick to pick up that pdf on scales offered by SeanZ).
I would, too, like to work melodically as a result of this study, but that is way down the road.
I need to get this material well into my thinking.
OK, you got the wheels turning, thanks.
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The more standards that I am arranging, the more I am understanding "brothers and sisters". I often get lost in my fingerings and realize after the fact that when I meant to play an inversion of, for eg, D6 I played an inversion of F6 or B6 instead. It often sounded good, or at the very least "almost" there. I am realizing that not only are the 7b5 spawned from the dim interchangeable, so are the 6, min6, and 7 chords!
It's a bit scary. Like loosing sight of the shore. But I think I am beginning to understand how people like Oscar Peterson or Joe Pass could harmonize an entire tune on the fly.
That said, WILSON1 you keep dropping hints on things you are working on.
I'm not sure I follow you and I am VERY interested in adding to the movement vocabulary presented in the Kingstone book. I really want to explore the HECK out of chapters 2 & 3 and go as far as we can as a Study Group beyond even what Alan Kingstone had room to show in his book. I feel like his demonstrations were the tip of the ice berg, and that we've got some great talent on this forum to push this further. Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Can I cajole you into a quick video demonstration?
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[QUOTE=rlrhett;783359]The more standards that I am arranging, the more I am understanding "brothers and sisters". I often get lost in my fingerings and realize after the fact that when I meant to play an inversion of, for eg, D6 I played an inversion of F6 or B6 instead. It often sounded good, or at the very least "almost" there. I am realizing that not only are the 7b5 spawned from the dim interchangeable, so are the 6, min6, and 7 chords!
It's a bit scary. Like loosing sight of the shore. But I think I am beginning to understand how people like Oscar Peterson or Joe Pass could harmonize an entire tune on the fly.
A Kingstone's post #77 in the other BH forum has a diagram he calls Chord Constellation - a terrific visual of how the m6, maj6, m7b5, etc of a 'brothers & sisters family' relate. His example is for B, D, F, & Ab dim i.e. key centers of C, Eb, Gb, & A but if you take that and work one out for each of the other 2 dim familys, you'll see the connections for all 12 keys. You can find the post on Page 3 of 'The Official Barry Harris' thread which is in the Improvisation Section.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Don't think a vid would help here.
I was very interested in your vid demonstrating all four 7b5's resolving to the tonic!
That's the thing that kept bugging me.
Stuck here in the jazz wasteland all I had were my teachers notes and Barry Harris videos!
Doctor Harris kept emphasizing to his class that if you are playing a maj7 you can be in two keys, a min7 three keys, min7b5 one key and a dominant 7 one key!
So how could four dominant b5 chords resolve to one tonic?
Mr. Kingstone, very kindly, suggested that I think of each dominant.
So here it is: G-B-Db-FA 7 9 3 13 one key: D
BUT...
I simply tried playing a min6 scale on the fifth of each of the four dominants suggested resolving to D.
They sounded ok to me.Last edited by WILSON 1; 06-27-2017 at 01:02 PM.
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The four 'dominants' in the G family are G, Bb, Db, & E (not G, B, Db, & F) and those are V7 of key centers C, Eb, Gb, & A. Playing the m6 on the 5th of the dominants would give you: Dm6, Fm6, Abm6, & Bm6 and those are effectively the II chord for each of the key centers. Now Dm6 is also Bm7b5 and that is is VII of C, Fm6 is Abm7b5 or VII of A, Abm6 = Fm7b5 or VII of Gb, and Bm6 = Dm7b5 = VII of Eb. VII is always a substitution for II which is why the 4 related m7b5/m6 chords are related & interchangeable. For just one example, in place of G7 going to C, play Abm6/Bm7b5, Cmaj7. Then play the same two chords in sequence but resolve to Eb, Gb, or A the other 3 key centers from the G dom. 7 family. Hope this helps. Originally Posted by WILSON 1
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The four 'dominants' in the G family are G, Bb, Db, & E (not G, B, Db, & F) Originally Posted by SeanZ
I guess I didn't make myself clear AGAIN....sorry.
I didn't mean to imply that those were the dominants to consider. I was spelling out just one of them the G7b5. In the key of D we are "reading" this chord on our instruments but it is not "spelled" on your chart as VII7b5.
In your post you have Fm6=Abm7b5 and I think you meant Dm7b5...but I get what you have there.
Thanks for directing me to the chart by A. Kingstone...that might become a poster on my wall!
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There's one thing that really confuses me - if AK is lurking somewhere, wish he would post an explanation?
Here is my quandry: the related dim of a G7 dominant is B, D, F, & Ab. However Dm6 dim and Abm6 dim can also be played for G7 and the dim with both of those is Db, E, G, & Bb. As such are the 2 dim familys interchangeable for G7 as well as it's other 3 related dominants (Bb, Db, & E)?
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Originally Posted by SeanZ
Good question. Remember we are trying to ultimately achieve harmonic movement so we need to think of the chord/scale as a means to it. When you are moving on, say, Abm6 Diminished Scale (with Go/Bbo/Dbo/Eo) resolving to C (or Cm) Abm6 sounds a lot better than the related diminished. So when moving on the scale get to the primary chord (any inversion) and resolve.
But look at the 2 diminished chords you have listed.
B, D, F, Ab
Db, E, G,Bb
Start on G and ......
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But look at the 2 diminished chords you have listed.
B, D, F, Ab
Db, E, G,Bb
Start on G and ......[/QUOTE]
G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, D, E, F = traditional 1/2 step - whole step diminished scale beginning on root of the dominant?
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Right! But Barry says "it's not half step, whole step, we're too smart for that".
By this he wants us to know where the Diminished Scale comes from.
PAGE 14
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As usual Barry Harris vastly overestimates my intelligence
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Originally Posted by SeanZ
Yes this is exactly the thing I was getting at and Alan's answer confirms my understanding.
We get away with playing all the related diminishes (C6dim scale) over say, G7, because they are G7b9 (no root)...and Abm6 because it is C#9 (no root)...the tritone of G7...Dm6 because it is G9 (no root).
The dim6 scales and the dim. chords associated with them, that we are studying here, my get us to and from but may not all work that well as we approach the target chord.
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Well, I guess I'll throw in my $.02.
I too was confused by the seemingly TWO dim families implied by the use of a min6 for a dominant. I think I've clarified it in my mind, but I don't know my thoughts will pass the test of time.
I think the difference lies in whether we are using the min6 as a chord of motion to another chord/tone center. I have noticed that when I have a target chord/tone center the dim built on the note chromatically BELOW the target resolves nicely to the target. The dim built ON the target, leads away. The dim built ABOVE the target doesn't really want to resolve to the target. You can force it there, but it doesn't resolve there. It's just... meh. (Yes, you can look that up. That is an actual music theory term I learned in Jazz school)*
The thing is that the dim family that "spawns" a min6/7/7b5 is not the same as the "related" dim of those chords. I can take any min6/7/7b5 spawned from the dim family BELOW the target and it will resolve to the target. The related dim to those min6/7/7b5 is the dim ABOVE. You can use it to add motion and extend your min6/7/7b5, but not as a substitution. It will not take you convincingly to your target.
As usual, here is a rather long winded video. I honestly don't understand how you guys can read these dense paragraphs of gobbledygook without hearing or seeing an example and get anything out of it. I'm not joking when I say I don't understand what is being said in these posts. It often takes me several readings, and then I'm still not sure if I understood.
*I actually didn't know you could go to school to learn Jazz until I joined this forum.
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Did I say people write too much....Last edited by WILSON 1; 07-13-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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Wilson1, I watched your video a couple of times now. I find fascinating for several reasons, not the least of which because I realize we are approaching the same material VERY differently.
In a nutshell, it appears that your anchoring principle is the Dominant chord, and you are approaching Barry Harris as functional harmony. The Dominant appears to inform you what your tonal center/key is, where you find your cadences, and more importantly for this discussion what diminished family to use.
If I was to summarize my take on this Barry Harris material it is that the Dominant all but disappears. It is just a flavor of the diminished chord. In fact, functional harmony seems secondary to the three families of diminished chords. It seems that for BH everything is about pushing voices around of the dim depending on whether you want consonance, dissonance, tension, resolution, etc. Cadences seem to be more about movement from one diminished family to the other.
I wish I could solidify what I mean into something coherent, but I just can't seem to get a solid hold on this yet. It is the cadences that has me still looking for a breakthrough. All I know is that I've become allergic to the 7 chord. I've arbitrarily banished it from my arrangements because of its too powerful pull to look at things through the I-V or ii-V lens.
I'm just a hack insomniac who discovered this material a year or so ago. I'm working on reharmonizing some standards (even a couple Beatles tunes) applying these principals, and working out solo chord-melody style arrangements. As I do so, I feel like I am solidifying a new, to me, understanding of harmony. You've obviously been thinking and working with this much longer and are a more accomplished musician. It is a little disconcerting to see the same material presented quite differently than what I thought I was understanding, and yet very logically and well presented. It makes me doubt what I think I've learned and I wonder if my understanding of this material will survive the test of time.
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