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Going through Barry Harris concepts and realizing that one is working with simple but ti on fundamental categories ---
the A section of "Speak Low" begins width a repeating ii-V sequence (Gm7-C7)
subbing for chord
Gm7 to BbM7
C7 to Gm6
apart from noting that a ii-V is just moving from iim7 to iim6....
you are just swapping out diatonic subdominant and dominant chords
subdominant ii to IV chord ----Gm7 to BbM7
dominant V to vii chord -------C7 to Em7b5. (Ebm7b5 is Gm6)
so you can use the IV and vii chords instead of the usual ii-Vs
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01-03-2016 04:22 PM
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Irez87, I don't see the ear training thing as fundamentally opposed to the understanding harmony conceptually. You can hear the concepts. They are our way of contextualising the sounds. In my limited understanding of Bruce Arnold's work, I see the one note recognition thing as the very basics. I believe he points out it's how you contextualise those sounds that is important, and the later stages of the courses go into this in detail in various contexts.
You yourself have shown this with the Giant Steps podcast.
I'll give you an example. In Indian classical traditions they have a system of solfege not hugely removed from our system of solfege. However, the way they understand music is totally different to the Western tradition.
When I talk about my concepts I know that they have some validity - if only for me - because I have heard the sounds in solos, and understood them a certain way. Belonging to a certain school of education might point you in one way or another (for example, Tristano students might hear jazz in a different way to perhaps Barry Harris students, or you might have you own take on it all) which will mean that you as a player will be drawn towards musicians who have a similar way of hearing to yourself.
In contemporary jazz (post-bop, post-fusion etc) we have moved towards an understanding based on chord scales largely under the influence of institutions such as Berklee. While you might avoid this stuff if you play only bop or swing, if you want to play with people who play post-bop you have to have some understanding of this, both aurally and theoretically. Of course - you can develop your own approach - like say, Steve Coleman, but then that's another thing.... The M-Base thing isn't about negating ideas, just about exploring possibilities anyway.
Anyhoo. How you contextualise and make music is up to you. But ultimately, theories or ideas themselves have little value. The artistic statement you make, and the way you play music is everything.
Having a fairly academic background, it took me a long time to recognise this.
The other thing it took me a while to grasp is that working as a musician is about compromise. Some stuff you have to keep on the back burner. Other stuff you have to blag. Some things you can really do.Last edited by christianm77; 01-03-2016 at 05:57 PM.
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Yea... if I offend... I apologize. I do notice how many time members have problems separating different elements when trying to understand concepts.... Irez... I feel for your students. Keep pushing your training and when you get there... where ever that is.... then try and teach your concepts. It's usually not that great to teach things you can't really cover. You might have it wrong.
So another level of using... expanded Diatonic relationships... or different group or source for some more subs.
A note... generally when you say sub. that's what your doing, right... substituting a different chord for the existing chord. Like Navdeep said... your subbing and then subbing for that sub... new chords. The only difference between subbing and using expanded diatonic relationships... is how you use the new voicing from which to create new relationships..
In his example... I generally use extended chords... just running inversions get very vanilla... So really to sub a Bbmaj7 for G-7... and actually just play those chords.... whooo sound pretty lousy right...but if you create a chord pattern that uses that Bbmaj reference and still implies the II V ... maybe you'll have something. Your not trying to change the chord... your trying to create music and still imply that G-7.
When you add a sub and basically create a chord pattern... that's really a different application. Take D-7 A7
, basic I- V7. So you sub. Eb7 for the A7. That can easily become modal, usually does. Think of Night in Tunisia...
D-9 to A7
D-9 to Eb9
D-7 to A7b13 to Bb-7 to Eb9#11
Your creating different functional movement... anyway just hoping you see and can hear the differences. How you would solo or compose a melody would be different.
When your comping... the subs and the patterns you use them in... has tonal implications.
Anyway... using the up and down diatonic 3rd movement type of motion.
If we take E-7b5, I'm using so I can post some examples from "Stella",
So with -7b5's... the diatonic movement up would be to II-7 or E-7b5 to G-7... but you'll all probable aware of the E-7b5 inversion to becoming G-6.... same notes.
E G Bb D becomes G Bb D E But rather than get into the Diminished influenced organization... I generally open the melodic minor door. That II-7 or G-7 diatonic sub of E-7b5 becomes G-maj7... or G melodic minor.
In the last 50 or so years... melodic minor has closer relationships to Dorian, rather than Natural minor. The V to I relationship isn't the king anymore. Again another reason why I don't like Diminished chords or when used as functional sub type of application for harmonic movement... I didn't say it's bad or wrong... just personal taste. And If you watch my playing i do use Diminish chords functionally ... just not all the time.
So this expanded Diatonic relationship created a different type of chordal or melodic movement... yea chordal and melodic applications are the same... just different performance. The linear and horizontal thing is just a teaching or reference tool for verbally talking about etc...
So back to the E-7b5 to A7b9
The E-7b5 can be used with G-6/9 or C13(#11) and you have access to Melodic minor...
Here's a short example for few bars of stella....
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Reg, what's the name of the app you're using? I couldn't make out what you said it was. Where can I get it? Sounds great.
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Thanks, Reg. I'll have to dig into this. Your comping videos are always great, but this one.... just a lot easier to follow what you're doing combined with the context of your previous posts in this thread. Thanks again for the breakdown.
Originally Posted by Reg
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Jordon hip me to... Drumgenious phone app Originally Posted by edh
Reg, what's the name of the app you're using? I couldn't make out what you said it was. Where can I get it? Sounds great.
Thanks Matt... I''l try and post at least one a day for a while ... each with different takes of creating movement and different tunes...
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Originally Posted by Reg
Drum Genius is a great app and has versions for iOS and Android. I wish they had a computer version I prefer laptops to pad and smartphones.
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Maybe Reg can make a video of examples of II V and how to create chord movement using all different concepts, the we/I can practice them and start making them my own
Thx
Ken
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Ken,
you really want things to be too easy..
Reg has done more than one could have expected...
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Reg looped 2 bar sections of Stella a few times each in the last video. The first is a minor 2 5. The second is a major 2 5 for example. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Maybe Reg can make a video of examples of II V and how to create chord movement using all different concepts, the we/I can practice them and start making them my own
Thx
Ken
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Why don't you let him respond...WTF!!!!!!!!! Originally Posted by Jonah
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First off AH, he does this on his own, nobody makes Reg come here and teach us...He must enjoy doing it, he's not getting paid...so keep your fing thoughts to yourself! Originally Posted by Jonah
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Don't I?Why don't you let him respond...WTF!!!!!!!!!
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My thoughts are mine and I keep them wherever I want them to keep...).
First off AH, he does this on his own, nobody makes Reg come here and teach us...He must enjoy doing it, he's not getting paid...so keep your fing thoughts to yourself!
Do you hear youself?
Maybe you need someone to move your arm up and down while playing?Maybe Reg can make a video of examples of II V and how to create chord movement using all different concepts, the we/I can practice them and start making them my own
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At this point, you are basically trolling, people have given you EXACTLY what you ask for numerous times, again and again (eg, ii-V examples) and you essentially IGNORE it and go back to ask for the same thing again and again. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Thst st is poor, disrespectful behavior.
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I'm the one that started this god dam thread, if it wasn't for me we wouldn't even be having this discussion!!!!
Trolling? your insane!
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If it wasn't for me you wouldn't have heard about Richie Zellon, so cut the shit!!!
I'm trying to help people out!!!!!!!!!!
You people should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!!!!!!!
I done
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Let's take a deep breath, shall we?
Yes, Ken, you started this thread but that doesn't mean you own it. (And in the OP you asked for the name of a book on chord movement; we've moved far beyond a list of useful titles.)
You have asked several times for more specific examples and when they are given, you seem to want OTHER more specific examples. People wonder, "Where will this end?" It smacks of trying to get someone else to do your homework for you.
You may not mean it like that. But you should know that this is how many here see your responses to those players who have put forward example after example after example.
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I'm just quoting this post because there's SO MUCH here and I'd hate to see it get buried... Originally Posted by Reg
It's also important to note...figure out the function of the notes in these shapes Reg gave...changing one or two notes by one fret can give you a bunch of new stuff too...
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Same here. Originally Posted by docbop
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Reg is like that. Maybe we'll have to have a "The Reg Files" thread, where all his pdfs and things such as this, which aren't pdfs could be made into them by some generous soul, could be gathered. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Reg's motto could be like those weightlifters Hans and Franz on SNL (-Dana Carvey and Kevin Nealon): "Hear me now and believe me later!" So much of what Reg says seemed odd or not necessary or just beyond me, but the longer I hang around and keep playing, the more I realize, "Reg was trying to tell me this five years ago..."
Watch Saturday Night Live: Pumping Up with Hans and Franz Online | Hulu
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There's the whole, "give a man a fish" versus "teach a man to fish" thing...Reg is more like, "give a man a really good pole, some strong line, and the best bait going and let himself figure out how to fish."
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You could go to Reg's YouTube channel and look for yourself. He's done tons of videos. I found this one all about ii-V chords in about 30 seconds. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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Wow. I have been needing to get my life right diatonically, I guess. Just working on the diatonic subs in thirds for a minute and realize how good the stuff is. All those drop two 9ths 11ths that I've never quite polished and memorized are there... and I already know them and basically have had them memorized. It's just slower for me to think of them with reference to just the one chord. They are much less mindnumbing to work on in the sub context.
Never really explored the VII-7b5 for II-7 relationship before. Loving this for Am7:
X X 5 55 7
X X 4 5 5 5
X X 7 9 8.10
X X 7 9 7 8
X X10.12.12.12
Very cool...Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-04-2016 at 07:07 PM.
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Reg wrote: "E G Bb D becomes G Bb D E But rather than get into the Diminished influenced organization... I generally open the melodic minor door. That II-7 or G-7 diatonic sub of E-7b5 becomes G-maj7... or G melodic minor. "
Is this 'modal intechange'? And does it also mean you can always play II melodic minor over a II-V in a key?
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naming chords?
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