Analyzing the bridge in GFI

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah, Jobim is the master of being sneaky.

But to my ear I still hear it as relating to the F. I could even hear it resolving back down to the tonic (like the bridge of "Little Sunflower" try it, see if it works to your ear.) But he does take it somewhere else. But that is the nature of a pivot chord - it means one thing to what came before and something different to what comes after.

But again, if someone hears the Gb as a tonic - that's OK. It's just not how it sounds to me. And because I hear it as a bII (I will avoid the N-word to keep certain people from having seizures) - I hear it as having a C and Cb hears wrong to my ear. If you hear it as a tonic, then the Cb is inside and the C is still cool. Just play it how you hear it.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

The only Neoplitans that used that device all the time were Frank and Dean. But I'm not sure if they were Neopolitans or Sicilians being tha Frank Was born in hoboken

Badda bing! (That's a Neapolitan rim shot).

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by M-ster

And then you continue with your own theoretical discussion that includes solfège, of all things.

Remeber this? I said "over analysis," and locked onto the do, re, mi's as excess?

A funny thing happened on the way to the movies last night. My son (7th grade) from his little private school (400 students, 2 years of pre-K through 12), no school band, no school choir - was trying to tap out that song "Doe a dear, a female dear" on his piano. I asked him why he was noodling with that. And he said, they are using that in music class to begin a study of sight singing. I asked, "With the do, re, mi syllables?" He said, yes.

Wow. I wonder if the music teacher remembers off the top of her head what Neapolitan Sixth is?

[JohnW400]

Theres all kind of 6ths. They usually had something to do with a tritone substitute in first inversion that resolved a particular way. But as that music evolved I think that kind of thing got dropped

Not too long ago I saw something on a classical guitar forum about augmented 6ths. I had forgotten all about them. I went back to my theory textbook from college and there they were. I must have known about them back them (1980 or so) and never saw them metioned again until 2010.

Also noteworthy is that the freshman sight singing classes had to use strict solfege when singing. That meant that regardless of key C is Do, D is Re ect.

That class was my least favorite

[ksjazzguitar]

Aristotle, there's nothing wrong with solfege. In some many countries that is how they name the notes. But you have to remember that Americans don't so it sounds odd to us when applied like that. I agree, it was wrong for someone to call you out for using solfege, but you have overreacted to that.

In English (pretty much everywhere, but I'm not sure about India) we use "C" instead of "do" unless we are in sight-singing class. Since many people here do no have a formal music education, they will not understand solfege, unless you are doing selections from The Sound of Music.

Peace,
Kevin

[Stackabones]

For what it's worth -- we use solfege in my Gregorian chant group, and it's a common-enough practice to use it to work up chants.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

augmented 6ths. I had forgotten all about them. I went back to my theory textbook from college and there they were. I must have known about them back them (1980 or so) and never saw them metioned again until 2010.

Similar experience. FWIW, I play classical, so I get a few reminders, like the N6 in Moonlight Sonata. I just don't how it produces anything helpful in a jazz analysis.

Also noteworthy is that the freshman sight singing classes had to use strict solfege when singing. That meant that regardless of key C is Do, D is Re ect.

That's the Latin America way also. I don't know about Eurpose. In Puerto Rico, they refer to the key of D min as Key of Re Menor, and so forth. I have also run into people from South America who did it that way. They also use Si instead of Ti.

[matt.guitarteacher]

One of my college buddies learned music in a non-english-speeking country. When we were in college, his american organ instructor was ready to pull her hair out because every time she said something about playing C, he'd play C# or "Si".

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Similar experience. FWIW, I play classical, so I get a few reminders, like the N6 in Moonlight Sonata. I just don't how it produces anything helpful in a jazz analysis.

The same thing it does in classical - it produces a useful label. If it adds nothing to jazz analysis then it adds nothing to classical analysis since they are describing the same harmonic function. A label is a label. It would be like saying, "I don't know why you call that first chord in 'Satin Doll' a 'ii' chord - I know that that's what they call it in classical, but I just don't know that it produces anything useful in a jazz analysis." It does, it's a label that describes function. Whether I call something an N6 or bII is irrelevant - it's just a label. Personally, I prefer the N6 label because it makes it clear that it is functioning as an N6. In some labeling systems, a bII might not be acting that way - like Mehegan where everything is labeled relative to the parent key including in most modulations. But if I see N6, I know exactly what is going on - the same chromatically altered subdominant function that is happening in an N6 in classical. To create two different terminologies for the same function is ridiculous.

(For those of you also following my thread on European tradition influence on jazz - this is an example of the desperate attempt that jazz musicians make to distance themselves from classical. They seem to really want to believe that jazz harmony has nothing to do with classical. In reality, it almost entirely comes from classical - it's hard to find something in jazz harmony that doesn't have a precedent in classical harmony.)

But if you really hate the word "Neapolitan," then you don't have to use it. But many of us will because it is very useful.

Peace,
Kevin

[paynow]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Well, guys, at least this thread has made me look up "Neapolitan Sixth". I used to think it was the deluxe version of this:

Big Daddy,

I'm Sicilian but my cousin is Neapolitan and he confirmed you're correct; this is also a "Neapolitan Sixth". After reading all this s--t, however, the two of us sat down and drank a "Neapolitan Fifth":

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

One of my college buddies learned music in a non-english-speeking country. When we were in college, his american organ instructor was ready to pull her hair out because every time she said something about playing C, he'd play C# or "Si".

Yo comprendo.

Is this where we pull out chestnuts about Beethoven decomposing? Page nine and Al Capo?

[ksjazzguitar]

"Page nine"?

I haven't heard that one.

Peace,
Kevin

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Yo comprendo.

Is this where we pull out chestnuts about Beethoven decomposing? Page nine and Al Capo?

Sorry. I got the syllables wrong. Actually, Si is G#. Maybe it was when she said "D" he played Di or C#. True story though.

[ksjazzguitar]

Some systems do use "si" for "B." I had that problem with a French guitar student once. Every time I said "C" he thought I mean "si."

Peace,
Kevin.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Sorry. I got the syllables wrong.

I know, but it didn't take anything away from the joke.

[Reg]

Hey Kevin thought I might give you some more information from Groves, as I said I have all copies, had to dig them out of boxes, actually I have copies of anything I quote.
Here's your quote...(on sequence from Groves) from above...
Quote:
"A melodic or polyphonic idea consisting of a short figure or motif stated successively at different pitch levels, so that it moves up or down a scale by equidistant intervals. It may be true to the diatonicism [diatonic sequence] of the passage or may involve a literal transposition [chromatic sequence]."

If we remove your comments added to Groves definition..."Diatonic sequence" and "Chromatic sequence", which have no direct definitions where as diatonicism does and I quote from Harvards Dictonary because Groves is very limited, "Diatonicism means music whose tonality is predominantly Diatonic. " music is called "diatonic" if it is confined to the notes of the scale, to the exclusion of chromatic tones."

Your use of "Chromatic Sequence" (as your definition of "literal transposition"), does not have a definition either, at least in groves or other music theory reference books. Where as Transposition does, and I quote, "the notation of performance of music at a pitch different from that in which it was originally conceived, by raising or lowering the notes in it by the same interval."
When one looks up "literal" we find "Real". So it appears your taking some liberties in your understanding of the use of Chromatic Sequence"...If you could give some page #'s or other references in regard to Chromatic Sequence... we are talking about analysis of compositional techniques...
As I said there are direct references to use of "Tonal and Real" in all music theory references. Piston uses the terms " Tonal sequence and Modulating Sequence" in his book," Harmony" and uses "Real" in his book "Counterpoint", which I made reference to. You might want to re-think your use of chromatic sequence... or not...I don't care , but please try and use actual quotes, rather than your understand of... especially for the basis of use of derogatory comments. Reg

[princeplanet]

You say "Potayto" and I say "Potarto".... c'mon chaps, this is beyond pedantic. It's not even amusing any more. You guys need your own forum, something like "Theoretical Minutia for Jazz and/or Classical Eggheads". There you could even freely argue whether it's "minutia" or "minutiae"...... but more importantly, it would be away from discussions where some of us may wish to learn something useful...

[ksjazzguitar]

Reg,

First of all, I cannot comprehend why any musician lucky enough to have a copy of Grove would keep it in boxes - wtf?!?!?!

Secondly, you are simply conflating two different aspects of the term "diatonicism" - another indication that you really don't understand the terminology.

Yes, there are different ways to classify the two different types of transposition. The online version that I have of Grove's doesn't mention "tonal" or "real" transposition in the article. Does that mean that they don't exist? No, it's just not meant to be a comprehensive entry listing every variation in terminology. They know that people understand. In my theory classes, people interchange "real transposition," "chromatic transposition," and "literal transposition" without the blink of an eye. Because we know what we're talking about. I chose the term "chromatic transposition" because it is commonly understood by people who aren't theory wonks - if I'd said "real" or "literal" I may not have been understood. "Chromatic" and "diatonic" are the terms that Finale use to describe transposition. A quick Google search will show that they are in common usage. Your attempt to paint it as some esoteric terminology is just another pathetic attempt to avoid admitting that you didn't know what you were talking about.

And your assertion that "chromatic transposition" means to transpose a half-step - that is just beyond the pale. No one with even basic theory training would think that. You can try and twist words around and combine incompatible definitions to get the confusion you seek, but it doesn't change the basic facts.

Just give it up man. You got caught trying to pretend to know something that you don't. It's not the end of the world. Your somersaults to try and hide it just make it worse.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Kevin thought I might give you some more information from Groves,

Reg,
I think it is obvious to most people that the first two phrases of the song '99 bottles of beer on the wall' are the "same" musically. I bet most people recognize that on the bridge to GFI as well. Does it really matter what we call the sameness?

And have musicians formed a government, elected a legislature that has authorized an agency to force us - under penalty of fine, imprisonment and/or loss of license to play music - to use a fixed set of vocabulary? Jazz and political correctness, word police and thought police?

Let it go. Chill, dude. (Or was that supposed to be - Cool it, man).

[paynow]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

You say "Potayto" and I say "Potarto".... c'mon chaps, this is beyond pedantic. It's not even amusing any more. You guys need your own forum, something like "Theoretical Minutia for Jazz and/or Classical Eggheads". There you could even freely argue whether it's "minutia" or "minutiae"...... but more importantly, it would be away from discussions where some of us may wish to learn something useful...

It's "potato". That's according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary.

[Reg]

Points taken and fair enough... Reg

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

...And have musicians formed a government, elected a legislature that has authorized an agency to force us - under penalty of fine, imprisonment and/or loss of license to play music - to use a fixed set of vocabulary? Jazz and political correctness, word police and thought police?

Really man? Overreact much? You just can't seem to get over your victim complex.

If this were an astronomy forum, and someone said that the moon was made of cheese, and a forum member pointed out that he was wrong and didn't know what he was talking about - would that be an Orwellian conspiracy too? Would it be the jackbooted astronomy police, rounding up the cheese-mooners for re-education? No, it would be someone that knows what they're talking about trying to explain something to someone who doesn't care about the facts - foolish perhaps, but not some Orwellian dystopia.

Your nihilistic attempts to disrupt or mock any discussion of theory beyond "What scale do I use?" are transparent. I notice that you avoided the actual discussions of the role of theory in jazz. But that's an anti-theory guerrilla terrorist for you - always afraid of a head on fight. They prefer to snipe and run.

For those of you afraid that my tone will offend him, don't worry - he's made it clear that he only reads the first sentence of my posts.

Peace,
Kevin

[brwnhornet59]

Man!!!! Did I miss a good one or what???

[brwnhornet59]

Reg, what ever happened to that idiot?

[Gramps]

Name calling????????

[brwnhornet59]

Fact speaking.

[Gramps]

lol. Careful, he'll come back.

[brwnhornet59]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Double 07]

The analysis of the tune at the beginning of this thread was excellent stuff. This arguing that ensued WOW lol.

Anyway moving up a 1/2 step from F to Gb I like the sound of keeping everything natural over the Gb. All the scale degrees are so close better to spell it out so folks can hear the modulation better. Jobim was a very clever composer coming up with neat clever modulations. A fun tune